CAT MICHAEL: 20% of our students, they're going to have a serious mental health concern at some point within their life. And only one in five of those students, are actually going to receive the supports that they need. And when we zoom in even more, that one in five, 80% of that help comes from schools. That's huge. [MUSIC PLAYING] ALEC PATTON: This is High Tech High Unboxed. I'm Alec Patton, and that voice is Cat Michael Nicky. Cat's been on the podcast twice before, first to talk about supporting students' mental health during lockdown, and then to talk about supporting students' mental health as they came back into the school building. But the interview you're about to hear was recorded before either of those episodes. We recorded it in December 2019 to give teachers some tools to help out a student in an acute mental health crisis. Schools closed before we released the episode, and suddenly an episode about talking to a student one on one in your classroom didn't seem very relevant since most of us weren't sitting in the same room as anyone we didn't already live with. Honestly, I forgot we'd ever done this interview until I was talking to a student teacher who asked me about how I handled it when a student shared something personal and traumatic with me. I told them, I actually have a podcast episode about that, I just need to finish it. Now we haven't done a procession for a while, but it's time to cue the theme music. [MUSIC PLAYING] This episode is all about how to have that difficult, uncomfortable conversation with a kid about their mental health. And we start at the beginning. When you notice that something about a kid's behavior or just the general vibe is worrying you. CAT MICHAEL: I think you should be checking in with the student and not being afraid to check in. So much of what we see with mental health and advocating for student mental health, and just everyone's well-being, is this fear of talking about it. Mostly, that fear is coming from, if I talk about it, then it might plant the seed for more serious mental health concerns or that student will disconnect from me. And what we find is, that's not the case, it's absolutely not the case. The more we talked about it, the more likely someone is going to reach out for help. And oftentimes, when the person is really struggling, they're waiting for someone to just ask. So if you see that a student is changing behavior, just ask the magic question. Hey, I've noticed that you've been really down lately, and then just starting that conversation right there. I think Ross Greene has a really great approach of just like, I'm noticing something, what's going on? ALEC PATTON: A kid who's told by their teacher, hey, I really want to talk to you one on one, can you come in during lunch or after class? Could immediately leap to, I'm in trouble. How do you head that off so that a kid who's already feeling anxious doesn't just have their anxiety ramped up? CAT MICHAEL: Right. Yeah, that's an excellent question. Usually when I want to check in with the student, I do start off, you're absolutely not in trouble, I just like want some time to have a conversation with you and check in and see how you're doing. So like, let's enjoy lunch together or let's go on a little walk, how does that sound? And then if they have more questions, they'll usually ask. So it's really important to say that you're not in trouble, and I think it's also really important to share when you're meeting with that student. And if they share really vulnerable information, thanking them and saying, I'm so happy that you felt comfortable enough to share this information with me because I know that it's not easy to share, and now I want to find ways to help you and support you. Sometimes students won't be ready to talk, and that's also OK too. And if that student's not ready to talk to you, maybe putting it on other people's radar too. So whether that's the principal, or vise principal, any wellness or mental health support staff, just say, I've noticed the shift. And even calling home if you know that that family relation is safe, and you want to communicate to parents like, I've noticed this drastic shift, it's important for caregivers to also know. And maybe they're seeing something at home or they can provide more information as well. ALEC PATTON: What's the right time and place for that conversation? CAT MICHAEL: Yeah. Well, it's definitely not in front of the entire class. When we're setting up the environment to have any critical conversation, you really want it to be one on one, and a welcoming environment or a warm environment. So if that's your office and it's more confidential space, perfect, or going on just a walk with that student, that can also be helpful. So just reading your student and knowing. Some students you will know will not want to go for that walk, but will feel more comfortable having that conversation in your office. But the key point is that it's just not within the context of the full class or calling out that student because that can put some self-doubt, self-blame, embarrassment, which we absolutely do not want to see. It's also important to just be fully present. Our kids and adults now are so wrapped up in technology, so making sure that your phone is not present or just not on so that you can really focus on the student. And then also making sure that you're doing like some active listening techniques. So that's eye contact, repeating what they're saying, so not inserting your own personal words, but really using their language. So if something comes up where a student is saying, you know, I'm feeling really low, repeating what they're saying, you're feeling really low right now, tell me what that's looking like for you? So using that specific language that they're using as well. And then knowing when you do need to bring in other supports. So if a student is reporting that they're feeling so low that they're thinking about ending their life, that's when you want to bring in another adult. And if that's the case too, you definitely want to make sure that there's supervision on that student as well. So you don't want to leave them alone in that space. So being able to coordinate that as well. ALEC PATTON: So you're meeting with them one on one, you're in the classroom and it's empty, or you're in your office, and they express a desire to harm themselves. You want to have another adult there and you also don't want to leave, and you've also put your phone away because you want to be fully present, just like on the most logistical, strategic, step by step, how do you get that other adult in the room? CAT MICHAEL: Yeah. that's a great question. So when that happens, I always instruct teachers to just say, you know what? When I'm feeling really concerned about a student and I want to make sure that they're safe, sometimes I need to talk to other adults so that we can come up with a plan that best supports you. So right now I'm going to contact xyz person. And that's when I take out my phone and send them a text saying, OK, would love to collaborate on something with you. With that being said, if it is a completely safe environment and you see someone right outside your office, you could also say, hey, can you like keep an eye on the student while I go running get so and so too? If it's feeling like it's really high level and you need to immediately get someone. So there are definitely like ways around it and I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, but you want to make sure that student isn't walking out of the building after they make that statement, or you're not leaving them in a room that's like woodworking room with potential tools, after they've shared that they might want to be harming themselves. ALEC PATTON: So student says to me that they're thinking of hurting themselves, and I think, I really want to talk to Cat right now. I need to get like a psychologist in the room at this point. And I look outside and Brent's outside, and I say, hey, do you know Brent? Yeah, I know a bit. Is he the teacher you're feel comfortable with? Yeah, I do. Brent can you come in here? I'm just going to go check in with Cat. Brent stays with the student on the students' supervising, and feel safe and is safe, I go and find you, or if I can't find you, I go find whoever I can. Somebody, dean, or whoever is available. We then come back, that student had somebody with them at all times. Does that kind of what you're describing? CAT MICHAEL: Yes. ALEC PATTON: Awesome. CAT MICHAEL: Speaking of emergency situation. ALEC PATTON: All right. CAT MICHAEL: Is it a drill, do you think? ALEC PATTON: I don't know but-- CAT MICHAEL: It's raining. Yeah, I don't feel like they would do the drill-- ALEC PATTON: So Yes, that was a fire alarm and we evacuated the building. It turned out someone was cooking brownies and they set off a smoke detector. When we got back to the office I asked Cat about something I've always found really difficult, how to end a conversation like this with a student. CAT MICHAEL: I don't think there's a very cut and dry answer to that. Either it's going to end naturally or you're going to self think like, this feels really awkward, I don't know how to end this. And I don't think there's a perfect way to end things either. What I think is key is that you've open the door, you've asked the question, and now you've also incorporated the appropriate people. So if it is at the point where it's like, OK we were worried about suicidal ideation or self harm, now you've informed the correct people, so whether-- in every school is different-- so that might be your principal, that might be your school psychologist, it might be a social worker, just know the people and resources within your building. And then it's their job to go in and wrap everything up and make sure that there is a plan in place. It is not your job to wrap everything up, your job is just to keep that connection with that student and to continue to be that safe person for that student to hold these kinds of conversations so that if it does come up again, then we know there's an adult that they trust and that they're more likely to go to. ALEC PATTON: And don't worry, Cat does actually have a great suggestion for ending a conversation like this. CAT MICHAEL: A lot of times I'll ask kids, especially if they're in a really low state, like what's the thing that makes you feel happy or makes you feel better? Whether that's even just the slightest bit, and then we come up with a list of the things that they want to do, whether that's petting their dog, when they get home. And some kids tell me, I really just like cooking a bowl of pasta and watching The Office, you know, it varies. So being able to just come up with a plan, Yes, absolutely, and that's totally within like a teacher's wheelhouse of just like, let's do a self care plan. ALEC PATTON: Yeah. I also want to talk about, you do not have any kind of relationship with a kid, and it's just entirely negative, I think it's very easy to feel like well, somebody is probably the right person to talk to this kid, but it's clearly not me. What should you do? CAT MICHAEL: Talk to the kid. That would be my advice. Well, I think if you work with a team, elementary is very different in the sense that a lot of times there's only one teacher, but if you work with a team, I think it's really important to say, have any of you connected with this student too? What we do know is that students are more likely to work through mental health concerns and ask for help if they are connected to someone within their community and specifically an adult. So if the student is driving you a little bonkers, most likely they might also be driving the other teachers a little bonkers as well, and it's so important for someone to just be that person. And as soon as we just open the door and create that connection, a lot of times we'll start to see some of those behaviors dissipate too. They'll start disappearing because now you've turned into this trusted person, there's a little bit more respect built there between each other, understanding too. So now I've asked the student and I understand what's happening for them. And then the other side of it is keeping in mind that the kids who often need the most help and the most love, will show it in the most unkind ways sometimes or in the ways that are really going to irk you. So keeping that in mind as well. So what is happening for the student? Do they have a connection to another adult? So asking your team and just being the one not afraid to ask. And to keep trying even if that student is constantly pushing you away. ALEC PATTON: Yeah. And I think really recognizing that it's not a kid's job to not be a jerk. CAT MICHAEL: Right. And they don't want to be. Most of the time they don't want to be. And if they're constantly pushing away, there's usually another story. ALEC PATTON: Yeah. I think it's weirdly not that hard to quiet down and listen to a kid, and just hear where they're coming from. Among all the life sophisticated tricky things you have to do as a teacher, I think that one's actually really easy. CAT MICHAEL: Yeah. And really easy too if you're willing to approach the situation from a really caring standpoint. If you're tapped out on this kid, then it's also important if you want to have this conversation, to come into the space with the right mindset. Because kids will also be able to read like, you don't actually care that you're asking me this. So making sure that your mindset is in the appropriate place. And if you feel like you can't get your mindset in that place, consulting with your team to be like, hey, can someone else start paving the way for that connection? ALEC PATTON: But I also think the flip side of that is that, it's bad when everyone has a terrible relationship with the student, but it's also bad when other people have a great relationship with the student and that student just hates you. That doesn't go great. I've been in both situations. CAT MICHAEL: Me too. Yeah. ALEC PATTON: To a certain extent it's like, suck it up. Again, that kid's job isn't to like you it's kind of like you decide you got to be the grownup. But also I think there is a certain danger that if you're like, Oh, you have a relationship with that kid, you should have that conversation, I shouldn't have that conversation. If you never have that conversation, you're never going to have that relationship with that kid. CAT MICHAEL: Right. and it's not going to get better. I think when you're initiating that conversation because you see a kid who's giving you a more challenging time, then Yes, talking to your team, but I also agree eventually, working in your way too so that it's not always this resistance. And also you're creating this almost profile of this student, like I can't connect with this kid, this kid is always going to give me a hard time. And we can do a lot of change and make a big difference just by asking and checking in with our kids. [MUSIC PLAYING] ALEC PATTON: High Tech High Unboxed is hosted and edited by me, Alec Patton. Our theme music is by Brother Hershel, and the pro sessions theme is by Temple Dogs. A huge Thanks to Cat Michael Nicky for this episode. I'm glad this time has finally come. You can find Cat on Instagram, she's @the_feelingsteacher. We've got a link in the show notes. Thanks for listening.