0:00  
I remember being in my office one day, and one of our science teachers came to me and said, Hey, you were in my classroom. Were you collecting information? And I said, you know, I actually didn't that time. And she was like, Can you come back so that I can see what you're seeing in my classroom, right? And she even drilled down to what period, because it was a period that she wasn't feeling that she was being that effective in connecting with her kids. The momentum that picked up once we started collecting this was just so powerful, and we just immediately started seeing changes in our classrooms.

0:44  
This is high tech, high unboxed. I'm Alec Patton, and that was the voice of Tammy UNK, principal of Bernal Intermediate School in San Jose, California. Bernal runs from seventh to eighth grade and has about 700 students, of whom about 100 are multilingual learners, or mlls for short. Those are the students we'll be focusing on today. I talked to Tammy along with brenell's assistant principal, Maria Smith and uchena Lewis. Uchena was working for the education nonprofit partners in school innovation at the time of the story we're telling today, and she was supporting Brunel in their improvement work. Tammy and Maria were in the school building for this interview, and it being a school, you're going to hear the PA system and the bells a few times during the interview. One more thing before we get into this episode, we're talking today about how a school is using continuous improvement to make a tangible difference in the lives of their students. If you want to connect with people from across the country who are doing cool stuff like this, there is only one place you want to be from March 30 to April 1 2026 and that's San Diego, California, for the National Summit on improvement in education. Book your spot today, while you still can. We've got a link in the show notes. Now. This episode's improvement story. In 2019 partners in school innovation launched an improvement network in San Jose. It was called the East Side Alliance, and included schools from four districts in East San Jose. In 2022 Bernal joined the East Side Alliance, and they made an interesting choice. They grounded their improvement work in their AVID program, avid for those who don't know, stands for Advancement Via Individual Determination. It's probably best known as a class focused on preparing students for college by focusing on what they call the wicker strategies. That's spelled W, I, C, O, R, and it stands for writing, inquiry, collaboration, organization and reading. Tammy was impressed by the skills that students were learning in their avid class, and it made her wonder how the school could share these strategies with all the students on campus, whether they were taking an avid class or not. So she put the AVID team in charge of professional development for an entire year. They also did a bunch of other stuff that I'm not about to give away right at the top of the episode. But what I will share with you right up front is the results they achieved for multilingual learners, which, remember, made up about 1/7 of the school during the 2022 2023 school year, Bernal achieved a 250% increase in the rate of multilingual learners reclassified to fluent English proficient status. Yes, just to reiterate, I said 250% in a single year, that is a 250% increase in the number of multilingual learners who have officially become fluent in English. That year, Brunel also reduced the number of students classified as long term English learners by 60% there's an obvious reason that this is a big deal. It's very helpful to be fluent in English. But there's another reason you might not know about if a student is classified as an English learner, they aren't even allowed to apply for a four year college in the California State system until they get reclassified. So I asked Tammy Maria nucena, how did you do it? Tammy kicked us off with her answer. Here she is.

3:42  
Our first step to doing that was looking at our data, both our LCAP, the sipsa, the state benchmark, local assessments here, the very first year we were here, and noticing that our MLL students were not scoring typically as high as we believed they could, nor as well as their counterparts at other schools, only 4% of our students were reclassifying, and we had over 88% of our students that were considered long term English language learners.

4:20  
And Maria, if I can bring you in what led you folks specifically to focus on multilingual learners for your improvement work. No

4:28  
matter what, whichever district schools that we're in, we're always looking at multilingual learners no matter what, just like we look at our special education population, but specifically here at Bernal, we're looking at students who we know, if we can make a difference for our multilingual learners, we know those strategies are going to hit all of our students, and it'll raise everyone up. So that's a easy way to focus on a group of students which will impact everyone else.

4:55  
And to China, how did you start working with Tammy and Maria? So.

5:00  
Tammy and Maria actually joined the network in year three of our network. So the network had already been running two years, and in the first two years that we were running, we had a focus on mathematics. And so when Maria and Tammy joined the network, we actually had done an intentional shift to focus on whole school transformation, and what that meant was with the other schools, we had done some work with them doing Rosie cycles around mathematics, but now we were shifting to a point where we did whole school transformation. So each school got to look at our working theory of improvement and select an area that their particular school needed to improve on so when I first met Tammy and Maria, both of them had said like, Hey, we are implementing our avid strategies. That seems to be working, but we are seeing these pockets of students who are not performing as well, and the network itself had a focus on African American, Latinx students, but we actually had to go to Gates Foundation to get special permission to also include multilingual learners, which in a lot of the schools in California. I think a lot of people assume that multilingual learners are just students who speak Spanish, but it's also tag Galang students who are Vietnamese, so it included a broader range. So we actually had to get special permission from the Gates Foundation in our network to be able to focus on that and in the network we had been studying this book, shadowing multilingual learners, written by Dr avania Soto. So that's also kind of what, what we did is we introduced different change ideals through the network, one of which started out being like shadowing multilingual learners. And Tammy school really picked up on that and ran with

6:53  
it. And you said, Rosie cycles? What are those

6:57  
rosy cycles? Are results oriented cycles of increase. So when we work with schools, when we initially start with them, we do something called a school transformation review. And the school transformation review has us go in over the course of a day, and we visit all the core classrooms. And in some cases, if there are like other focus areas, like special education or whatever. We go to all those classes, we collect data across 76 different line items, which focus on results oriented leadership, curriculum, instruction and assessment, and like the school's Professional Learning Plan, and we create an executive summary for them, which summarizes the areas of strength at the school, and also what we perceive as the areas of opportunity, like the places in the school where they can grow. So we present that report to them, and then we create what's called a theory of action. So each school develops a theory of action which says, Hey, these are our goals. These are our high priorities in regards to Curriculum, Instruction and Assessment, and these are our high priorities goals related to professional learning for our teachers. So when we worked with Bernal, we actually created a couple of different Google forms that were connected to the working in theory of improvement, which, when you're doing improvement science, you have to ask the question like, how do I know this is an improvement? So one of the things we did was we created an avid walk through tool. So we had Tammy Maria myself, some of the teachers on their ILT and their counselors do walk throughs of the teachers classrooms to collect data on the AVID strategies that were being implemented. So that gave us a really strong foundation to understand what the current practice was that we were seeing classrooms. So we could see, you know, where their strategies particularly related to student discourse, that we can deepen our work with teachers.

9:02  
Okay, walk throughs can be scary, depending on how teachers are feeling going into that. What was the initial response to that at Brenau?

9:11  
So we always give our teachers a heads up when we let them know, Hey, we're going to do these walk throughs, and we actually tell them what day, what time we're just looking around, observing for what is the common practice? Names are not being recorded, nothing like that. And then once we gather the data, uchena would take the data and she would translate them into like pie charts, and it showed exactly which strategies were used commonly, and then what wasn't, and it allowed the teachers to make a decision. Hey, looks like we need to do more of this. So it was very data driven. It was informative, very objective versus subjective. And they're so used to us walking through their classrooms, they don't even blink an eye. So would

10:00  
you say that was the first like big data collection of this project? Yes, was there anything that surprised you?

10:08  
I will say what surprised all of us, because we really had been focusing on collaboration and student talk. So when we first did it, I think we were all super surprised that the students were really mostly listening to the teachers, and it was more teacher to whole class style lessons being delivered. And so when we met that first time and came back and shared all of our data, information from the first shadow day quickly, our avid teachers administration partners saw that we needed to focus on getting students to speak in class, right, less teacher directed and more student directed in conversations. So that was our very first aha moment. Was when we saw that data,

11:01  
you can list out the different types of student collaboration that you would see in a classroom. So think pair share or students working in duos is one type, Socratic seminar is another type, philosophical chairs, jigsaw, reciprocal teaching, collaborative study groups, teacher modeling. So these are all different types of student collaboration strategies. However, when we went in and collected data at Bernal, what we saw was most of the actual implementation of strategies were focused on think pair shares and collaborative study group. So not as much with Jigsaw, not as much with reciprocal teaching. We didn't see a lot of evidence of philosophical chairs. So that's when we went back to the AVID team, and we said, hey, we're seeing this one strategy or two strategies. We're seeing these ones a lot. So you guys got those ones mastered. That is a strength that your school has. However, we would like to see you deepen some of your other practices. And so that's when we kind of turned a little bit to the research right Hattie's research, in particular, John Hattie, he did a lot of research on the effect size of different discourse strategies. And so, for example, reciprocal teaching is one of the highest strategies. So we were like, Hey, let's re hit this strategy and encourage teachers to pick one of the higher, more impactful strategies for discourse that teachers could use. And then those teachers did training on that. Did

12:38  
you see a bump across the school. When that happened,

12:42  
we definitely did see improvement. That's a given.

12:46  
It's not a given, though it's I've worked in schools, you can do professional development and it cannot show up anywhere. There is no guarantee that you teach.

12:55  
Yes, that is very true. Alec, however, at Bernal, we're very intentional with our design and implementation with professional development. And the reason why it works here, and why I can say it's a given because it is teacher led, and they're so invested in their own professional development that they design because they want it to be meaningful. So when we notice, we're great at these strategies. But we haven't even really tried these. They were ready to tackle that and see what results they would see. Then when you add the MLL shadowing tool, and I know we didn't really dive into that,

13:38  
we're gonna get there. We're good. It's Don't worry. Don't worry, it's coming. Okay,

13:41  
so you have your classroom walk throughs what we're seeing naturally happening in classrooms, and then Uchenna as our coach, bringing in a new tool for us, a different way to see what students are really learning that part, and where our teachers volunteer to participate in that shadowing tool. That was our biggest aha, because all they were doing is your role right now in this professional development, which was very different for them, is to watch students. What are they doing every five minutes? That was the biggest aha for them. And no one could argue what they saw, and that made them because they knew, my gosh, this is about kids. It's not about teachers, about kids. We need to do more for kids

14:27  
who was doing the walkthroughs when the walkthroughs happened.

14:32  
So we started with our ELD teacher, Maria, I was part of it. Uchana was part of it. And then I believe we had two more teachers at that time for our very initial one. And after we did that, and immediately before the end of the day, we had the data collected. It was charted so as a group, we saw right away where we were. Wrong areas we needed to work on. And so then we met to discuss, okay, so how does this roll out with staff? As we progressed each time we did shadow days, we had different teachers that did them. We did not stick with the same teachers each time, and my aha was how many of our teachers were asking no teacher wants to be out of their class for a long day, typically, PD training, observing walk throughs, they don't always see that as beneficial. And by the time we ended our first walkthrough, and especially by the time we had three of them. Our teachers were asking, Can I be the teacher that is on the next MLL shadow day, or can you come into my classroom and grab some data using the ML shadow day data tool that we had? And so they're inviting us into their classrooms to collect data, and they're also now asking to be part of our shadow days. And that was incredible, because they really wanted to see us improving in these strategies, because they knew this was going to benefit everybody, especially our MLL students, because once we started implementing reciprocal teaching and the tools, teachers quickly adapted what they were doing and how they were teaching to the students. And I think that's where the power is, right? I You nailed it. Alec, we can roll out all the PD we want. I've been doing this for 20 years now as a principal, and rolled out a lot of PD this. PD, MLL, Shadow day and the work we did with partners is the most impactful I have ever seen for students.

16:56  
I feel like our process for doing the multilingual learner shadowing. It actually changed and adjusted over time in addition. So when we were starting the network, like I mentioned before, we got special permission from the Gates Foundation to do some focus on multilingual learners during year two of our network. So my team, which at the time, it was like Amanda Faulkner, myself, Juliana and Paula Espinosa, we started doing some like internal research about who was right now, talking about multilingual learners, what are the good strategies? And we really found some support through Dr avania Soto. And I just want to say like her work was pivotal. She actually worked with our team. She trained us herself. She wrote a book called shadowing multilingual learners. During the time we were working with Dr Soto, she actually had cancer, and she has since passed away. So may she rest in peace. But I will say her work was probably some of the most impactful, because she was the one who wrote this research based protocol to support multilingual learner students. The first year that I worked with Tammy Maria and their teachers, we rolled that protocol out, and a couple of things happened. For one, Maria was actually the one who said, Hey, you China, can you turn this into an electronic version? Because Dr Soto had a paper based version that we use, and Maria really pushed my team at partners to develop an electronic Google form where we could collect the data and they could get immediate data representations of what happened through the walkthroughs. And then secondly, over the course of that summer, after the first year, my team actually presented at an improvement science conference. It was Amanda and I we did, we did a presentation where we did breakout groups. And one of the breakout groups I led was around the shadowing where participants came and gave me feedback on the protocol. And one of the participants at the Carnegie improvement science summit said to me, Hey, you're doing this shadowing, and this is supposed to be like a student voice strategy, but do the students even know they're being shadowed? Like, how are you really getting the students voice and after that presentation, is when I went back to Maria and Tammy, and I said, Hey, someone at this conference asked me this, what do you guys think about changing our protocol so that after the student is shadowed, we also engage in an empathy interview with the student. And so Tammy and Maria and their team designed a student empathy interview with me. And so year two, we changed our process so. That the day started where student was shadowed in two different classes. But then after lunch, the teacher would actually pull that student that was shadowed and say, Hey, I followed you around to these classes. What's going well for you? What classes do you do well in and what what do you feel is most supportive to your learning and that it like the teacher would like share a little bit of the shadow data with the student and ask them questions. So then we started rolling that out, and that's when I think the work really deepened and became really personal for the teachers. Because, hey, what do teachers want? A lot of them want to help students, and so creating that personal connection, where they can really hear that student's voice of like, what? What makes you feel supported, what scares you? What could we do differently? What are the best practices from your perspective? It really allowed us to anchor in and connect with the student perspective. More deeply

20:57  
was every teacher shadowing students who was doing the student shadowing.

21:02  
We started with counselors, ELD administration, Uchenna, I think we had a language arts teacher. From there, it expanded to where we had math teachers that did it. We had a PE teacher, we had science teachers. And so each time we did a shadow day. The teachers that were doing the shadowing, we had a history teacher look different, right? Partly because they really wanted to be part of collecting the data and observing classrooms to see what's going on when we use the data tool, where we went into classrooms that was more or less Maria. It was me, our counselors. And then sometimes, when, uh, Jenna was here, I believe she would do them as well. And those were just moments in time, right? Collecting like I'm in your classroom already walking campus, and I would stay in there for about 10 minutes and collect this data and come back. And so that tool was more just for the counselors, for Maria and us teachers could do it, but it was never rolled out where if on their prep, they could come and grab that. I'm sitting here thinking what a great idea that could have been right? It's always that learning of what's that next thing, and that was the walkthrough. Yes, that was when we were just grabbing random data throughout the day. Any day, our data was not just grabbed from Shadow days specifically, but this data. I mean, I think our we were tasked with, each one of us collecting 10 observations a week. And what was that? Did you have

22:45  
a name for that? Yeah, we had first. We had our wicker walkthrough, and that's the part that uchina mentioned. I asked her to make it into an electronic tool so that I can just carry my phone. I don't have to walk with a laptop into these classrooms. And then we went from having wicker, because that's the AVID focus, for a online tool, then we did the MLL shadowing tool for those strategies. And then I asked towards the end, I said, Can you do one for equity so that we can look at the classroom practice with the equity lens?

23:20  
I remember being in my office one day, and one of our science teachers came to me and said, Hey, you were in my classroom. Were you collecting information? And I said, you know, I actually didn't that time. And she was like, Can you come back and get do it so that I can see what you're seeing in my classroom? Right? And she even drilled down to what period, because it was a period that she wasn't feeling that she was being that effective in connecting with her kids, getting them to talk, right. And so I loved those moments. I have so many of those flashbacks as we're doing this conversation with you of when the history teacher came to me and asked, and so the momentum that picked up once we started collecting this was just so powerful, and we just immediately started seeing changes in our classrooms.

24:15  
Can I also say that when we shifted the PD days for year two, which were the shadowing in the morning, and then, you know, the empathy interview. We also did some work with the teachers around what are shifts they could make and and we used another resource, which is a long term success for experienced multilinguals. This is a book written by tan Nguyen and Beth Skelton, and so we we use a lot of the protocols in their book, too. This book was really helpful because it gave very specific linguistic strategies that teachers across different content areas could use, and it did the. Things like giving them strategies they could use to help students be more engaged. It talked about teachers doing more to understand what trans Ling wing is like if students are switching between different link languages and what supports they could have. And it also gave a lot of different scaffolds, and, you know, ways to just deepen student thinking related to content.

25:26  
Yeah, on the one side, you have these methods for data collection, and then, because you have that happening when you're looking at other strategies to bring in, you're not doing like a one size fits all thing. The combination means that the strategies are a lot stickier because a teacher is able to see like, Oh, I've got this issue in my classroom. This strategy could work to do that. And then you can even say, Hey, could you come in and watch me do this? I'm trying it out. And you have this structure for that.

25:58  
Yes, and stickier because Maria and Tammy brilliantly allowed the teachers to lead a lot of that work. So it wasn't like Tammy and Maria saying, top down, you have to do this strategy. It was more like them presenting data. Hey, here's where we're at with these different strategies. Hey, teachers, which ones do you want to tackle next? And teachers could then say, Hey, I've tried that. This is how it worked for me. This is how I did it in science. This is how I did it here. And they could share those different occurrences with those discourse strategies.

26:36  
Teachers leading PD can go two ways, and sometimes there can be a bit of both at the same time. One is like, Wow, it's so cool that we can take control of our own learning here. And the other one is, oh, you're asking me to do a bunch of work on top of my job. Was that an issue? And how did Bernal work this such that people felt like, Oh, this is an opportunity and something exciting, rather than an additional burden being placed

26:59  
on me. Well, they can add but I will just say that the partners team, we curated a lot of resources for them because we provided change packages, and so each change package had links to different things they could do to support the implementation of that change idea. So there was some support that our team provided, and we did create some, but Tammy and Maria, you can maybe share like your perspective. So

27:27  
when I meet with the AVID team who leads professional development school wide, so we do start in June, where we travel to San Diego and we do the AVID Summer Institute conference every year. And from that conference with the team, we have that time allotted to specifically and intentionally plan our professional development objectives for the entire year. So when we do that and we have our monthly meetings, we always bring up what is our objective. So for that particular school year, increasing student discourse and what are we doing every month in our PLCs that shows that that is actually happening, in conjunction with our shadowing day, our classroom walk throughs, I believe, for Tammy and I, we have created an environment that is safe for teachers. That is why they're so willing to try new things. Because we tell them, try it, try it for six weeks. Try it for 12 weeks. If it doesn't work, then stop doing it. And we give them that option, and they feel safe in doing things like that. My purpose as a facilitator, again, I'm not designing the professional development I'm just a facilitator, and I just always ask them questions, what is your goal? What's your objective? And how do you know that you got it

28:50  
to build off of that, there's always opportunity when we're meeting whole staff, for them to share what's working and some changes and give them that flexibility, right? Because it's not a one size fits all with this work or in education in general. And so when you have teachers who are willing to be vulnerable and say, Look, this tool, this strategy, whatever it is, is not working? Are we allowed to tweak it so it does? Of course you are. Is our answer? Right? Our goal? Everyone's goal here is to see improvement.

29:31  
Also want to underscore the importance of leadership. The teachers at Bernal trust, Tammy and Maria, that part of it underscores the phenomenal leadership of Tammy and Maria at the school. That has to be said,

29:49  
I want to return to shadow a student day. If a school leader wants to organize and do a shadow as a student day, talk me through the process of planning it. Talk me through. Through how the day goes okay.

30:02  
So like I mentioned, we did training with Dr Soto. She has this book called shadowing multilingual learners. And in the book, she has a protocol that she introduces. So the protocol actually has you go into classrooms and has you do five minute incremental observations of students. And so in terms of planning it, one you have to select the students that you're going to shadow. So when I got with Maria and Tammy to plan the shadow days, that was one of the things that I needed from them. Once we selected the students, we would create a MLL student profile, so the profile would collect data on the students grades over the past couple years. It would collect data on their test results over the past couple years. And then we would also provide like that students schedule, so then teachers would go into the classroom, and the protocol basically asked them to collect data every five minutes. So the first question is related to collecting the time stamps, and then asking, like, what activity is the student doing? So like, are they taking notes? Are they working on problems? Are they reading? Are they working with a partner, whatever. Then the next part of data that they collect is, what does academic speaking look like at the time? Like each five minute increment. So it's like, is the student talking to another student? Is the student talking to the teacher? Is the student talking to the whole class, or is the teacher talking to the student? Is the teacher talking to a small group? Is the teacher talking to the whole class? So the first one under Academic speaking allows us to track data on who is talking in the classroom. Is it more so the students talking? Are they talking to each other? Or is it the teacher talking? And then after that, we get into academic listening and collecting data on that. So again, if someone's talking and someone's listening, and who is the student listening to? Is the student listening to another student? Are they listening to the teacher? Are they in a small group, or is it like a whole class discussion. And then lastly, there was a part for us to collect data on if the student was, like, not really engaged. And then any comments we wanted to collect. We collected that data. Again, as Maria said, we would provide data visualizations for the team so that they could right away see it? I think when we did our first student shadow days, we saw a lot of teacher talking to the whole class, which initially we were like, what like, how is that happening? And we're an avid school, and so that, again, was data. So then you saw more shifts towards students talking as we did the additional shadow days, as we adjusted the shadow days, we did empathy interviews. We added that component on that's something we designed together. So there were different questions about what brought the student success, what their future goals and dreams were, because we wanted to surface the aspirational aspect that students have, what do they want to do? And then, just like what they found most helpful to support them to speak in classes, those were the kind of questions we asked during the empathy interview. And then after they did the empathy interview, I would debrief with them, and I would share maybe some resources again, from this long term success for experienced multilingual learners book to give them some strategies that they could either use themselves or bring back to the PD space that Maria and Tammy empowered them to lead and take on.

33:57  
When you're shadowing a kid, are you shadowing them in all their classes for the entire day, or is it a couple classes we

34:05  
are we always did three, really, right? And we didn't do PE or their

34:11  
elective. Got it all right. And now I want to return to that incredible number, that 250% increase in the rate of total multilingual learners reclassified to fluent English speakers. There had to be a point where you started thinking the impact we're having could be really, really big. When was that? When did you have a sense that something big was happening?

34:35  
Really, I think that we started seeing that when we were just walking classrooms and seeing the change in the oral discourse that our MLL students were showing they shifted from not talking at all to really speaking a lot. And so with that shift, I mean, we could start seeing that our our local benchmarks were higher. Or their scores for our MLL students, they were showing that they were getting close to meeting the standards, right? We saw that in our grades, their grades went up, their participation just in all areas of school, their their vulnerability to have conversations with us, and trust us, was a little more where I didn't know we were going to have the hugest, not Huges. But another area was I didn't realize how impactful this was for our long term MLL students, and that's a huge piece for Maria and me and I know ucena As well as our staff, because again, we have them two years. And if we're getting them in seventh grade and they have plateaued at a level three or a level two, we want that to go up each year. And if they're not, we have two years to get them re designated before they go to high school, because if they go to high school and they are a long term el or they're not re designated, that means they're going to be in ELD classes, which limits their ability and their options. When it comes to college. They can go to a two year college, but they're not going to be able to apply for the state or UCS right away because they're going to be in specific Alec classes. I hope that answers what you're saying. There was any specific aha moment. This was just gradual, and it was, I'm pretty certain we're going to see I remember seeing this like our projections are showing we're going to have this amazing increase for our students based on the data we're gathering and the work you guys are doing. And the end result was, you know, we had a huge number of kids that were reclassified and a huge number of students that were no longer, long term el learners,

37:01  
is there anything we haven't touched on that you want to make sure we talk about?

37:07  
Well, during the shadowing day, and each time we scheduled one with Uchenna, and like Uchenna said, we went from shadowing and then we added shadowing empathy interviews. And then after empathy interviews, she also added the professional reading and one of our science teachers, when he was doing the professional reading and looking at these specific strategies for academic discourse, he saw something that validated what he was already doing in class, which excited him. He was looking at a list that was called Thinking verbs that if you just point this out to kids in class, it will have a huge impact. And he thought, wait a minute, I do thinking verbs. He goes, what I'm not doing with them is I'm not explicitly labeling it and verbally telling kids, hey, when you guys do your think pair share, please use one of these thinking verbs and for him to model it. So he right away the next day after shadowing, the next day he did that specific strategy, and he was like, oh my goodness, the amount of talking I got from my class was just amazing that he didn't realize this is something I already know. I just never labeled it and I never intentionally told kids this is what we're going to do to increase your talk. And he saw the impact of it immediately.

38:30  
That's awesome. I love that. All right. I think that is a perfect spot to end it. Thank you all so much, Tammy Maria uchena, for taking the time and for the awesome work that you're all doing. I love it.

38:43  
Thank you, Alec, to talk to you. Tammy and Marie, I miss you guys.

38:47  
Oh, we miss you. Jenna, a lot. Hey, it's the season of cranberry sauce in a can. Don't do it,

38:57  
Alec, I really, I really appreciate that you asked us to participate in this, right? I think Maria and I, and no Chenna, are always going to keep moving forward and doing stuff and for other schools. You know, other administrators, if they listen to this and they're like, hey, we want to kind of look at what a shadow day is. It gives them a school. It gives them people. Because even if Maria and I aren't here, the staff here would be able to have conversations with them about what that looks like and how to do it. That's awesome. I really appreciate that you're branching out and doing this. And hey, this is a first, first podcast I've ever done.

39:39  
And also, Alec, I don't know, but we partners created some tools and resources to support shadowing, so there are actual documents that people can use. Yeah, I think that would be a great like next step for people like, Hey, if you want to take this a step further at your own. Tool, the shadow tool from Dr Soto is linked. Or the name of the book that we, you know, looked at, we could,

40:07  
yeah, yeah, we'll link that. We'll link that as well. Okay, cool, cool. Hot. Takai on box is hosted and edited by me Alec Patton. Our team music is by brother Herschel. Huge thanks to Tammy Ong, Maria Smith and Lucena Lewis for this conversation. You can find links to articles about Brus work, as well as the National Summit for improvement in education in our show notes. Thanks for listening. You.