This transcript was automatically generated

Stephen 0:00
We’re just looking at the numbers, so like, what can we do? And what can we try? And people kind of come in from this place of like, Oh, okay. And then all of a sudden they see some recruitment or something doesn’t work, okay, then let’s just go back to the drawing board, because it’s a mind shift. Like everyone’s kind of in the boat now.

Alec Patton 0:17
this is High Tech High Unboxed, I’m Alec Patton, and that was the voice of Stephen Rinaldo, assistant principal at school 16 in Yonkers in New York. I spoke to Stephen, along with Tarima Levine, the managing director of content design and strategy at the Bank Street Education Center, and Michael McDonald, former executive director of mathematics and professional development in Yonkers public schools, Michael is now Director of Innovation and Learning at the garrison union free public school district in New York. But today, we’re here to talk about Yonkers. In 2018 Yonkers started a pilot program in partnership with Bank Street Education Center in 2020 the work expanded to every single Middle School in Yonkers. Here’s the problem that the group is tackling together, students who are black, Latinx andor experiencing poverty are disproportionately unprepared for success in upper grades mathematics, their goal is to increase the percentage of black students, Latinx students and students experiencing poverty who are on track for success in high school by the end of eighth grade. For you, data heads out there, they measured on track by looking at proficiency on New York state exams combined with whether students were passing their math classes, and let’s talk about those proficiency rates for a moment. In the 2018 2019 school year when the program began, the percentage of eighth grade students who achieved proficiency on New York State math assessments was 28% by 2024 it had jumped to 40% I wanted to find out how they did it, so I brought in Michael to get a perspective from central office, Steven to get a school level perspective, and tarima to get the perspective of the improvement partner, bank, street Education Center. Michael didn’t join the team until 2020 but Steven got involved in the project that preceded this project back in 2015 so we’re going all the way back. Here’s how he remembers his first meeting.

Stephen 1:59
They got me with food. They said, come to this meeting. There’ll be fancy food. Was there, there was, there was delicious cookies, if I remember, at the hotel meeting room. Yeah, always shopping local. I think they were Graystone. So that’s kind of how we do it around here, yeah. I mean, and just something that just pokes out at me, like, you know, I remember that 2020, year as a teacher, and, you know, SEL being kind of at the forefront, and it was definitely a shift in what had been done in years prior.

Alec Patton 2:23
Quick note from me here, SEL stands for social and emotional learning. Now, back to Steven.

Stephen 2:30
It’s amazing what a pivot and what a mark it has made, because the reality is we’re still living it. So it’s still going.

Tarima 2:38
I remember Steve, what I remember about you is being like, super psyched when we did math problems. So we always start our sessions doing some sort of math problem or a design challenge or, you know, something to give people the experience of doing math together and what that feels like as an adult. And Steve was always like, 1,000% hyped about the math, like giving super complicated descriptions about, you know, multiple pathways and solutions, and even at four o’clock after school, working really long day, always showed, like, 1,000% heart and enthusiasm and dedication to his students. And so we always knew that whatever this activity was that Steve would appreciate the math, you know, because we always do math before all of our sessions. So always really appreciate that about you. I

Stephen 3:28
appreciate that if I could peek behind the curtain too. I mean, I will be honest. You know, in the beginning with all the CI work, it was, it was a lift, it was a challenge, it was a change in mind, shift. But they got me. I mean, they roped me in. And, you know, maybe it was the cookies, maybe it was the math. And the other good thing about Bank Street too has been, there really has been a lot of consistency with leadership over there. I mean, again, I mean tarima. Now, I when you’re saying, When did you first meet her? It’s like, I’ve known her for 10 years. I can’t even tell you, like she’s just part of the people. I know it was a heavy lift, but they got me. And really, the consistency has been really helpful too, because when you’re taking risks and when you’re trying something new, everybody kind of feels connected, and there’s some sort of family aspect to it.

Alec Patton 4:09
I’m glad you brought that up. I want to get into that initial lift. Did the words continuous improvement mean anything to you before you got those cookies? I mean,

Stephen 4:20
it was a complete new concept to me. I mean, I remember sitting at a meeting once, you know, just talking about the instructional core, and I’m like, what? Like, I’m so confused right now. But you know, one of the great things that I can say about Bank Street and, you know, different district leadership, Mike included, is that it was always made digestible, even if it took, you know, a hot second. So it’s nothing I had really been privy to or experienced in, but just by everybody breaking it down and sitting with me and, you know, just, you know, having the coaching and having everybody kind of by your side, and once it became clear, it’s like, you had that aha moment, and you were like. This is it like I understand now? And what is the instructional core? It’s the triangle. It’s got three things in it, the student, teacher and content, and how it all relates to each other, because it’s how everything’s interplaying and interacting with each other, that it’s not just one piece, right? So instruction is one thing, but it’s what is the student taking? What’s the content being delivered? What is the teacher doing? And how are they all kind of interplaying with each other and just that concept alone? You know, I think for some of my colleagues, especially in a in a secondary setting, right? Because I was seventh and eighth grade math and, you know, certified seven through 12 a lot of times, especially the content specialized people, we get stuck in this, like, well, this is the curriculum. Like, I have to deliver this content, yeah. And you know, as much as you’re thinking about your moves as a teacher, it’s like, well, how can I open it up to see, like, how did the students react to that? What’s going on here? And and kind of taking that different perspective and looking at it and just that alone was eye opening.

Tarima 5:54
And so the instructional core, Alec, we used to support teachers to talk about how they implemented their change ideas. You know, because oftentimes the people that were in the room couldn’t really get a clear visual or understanding about the full context to understand sort of what that qualitative story was. And so we supported teachers to get super, super nuanced and grain sized using language of the core. And so if you missed a corner of that triangle, you had to add more detail. And so we wanted to talk about content, like, what lesson were you teaching? What move did you make? How did that student react? So that it could shed light on how, if at all, the change idea was impactful, and then other people could sort of ask probing and clarifying questions so that it brought more clarity to what was happening. And so we can take the quantitative information and the qualitative information to figure out what to do next, because classroom plastic is isolated, you know. And I think this year is one of the first years, I think that there’s been structures put in place to do a little bit of inner visitation, but that’s really hard, you know, with teacher shortages and substitutes. So in order for folks to be able to engage in really meaningful conversations, you know, we want folks to be able to, you know, paint that picture as clearly as possible.

Stephen 7:21
And I know for us, like in our first year, we wound up doing a professional development for our whole staff, kind of as a team. And to your point, like it is sort of a lens, but it really is all about context. Because it’s so easy to sit in a room with someone and say, like, oh, well, what were you doing? Like, I was, you know, doing ratios or proportions. We were doing, you know, percents. And it’s like, that’s great, but to give the pun, really, it’s like, well, why? Like, what’s going on with the students? What’s going on in your mind? What moves are you making? Like, to rema’s point, like painting that picture of it’s not just the content, it’s not just the thing that I was doing in the classroom. It’s like, why it’s there, and what’s its purpose. And what am I gleaning from all of that? What did I see was going on in the classroom, you know, with my students and things like that.

Alec Patton 8:05
And Steve, you’ve been in education for a while. I’m going to take a guess that Bank Street, they may have brought the best cookies, but this was not the first time that people from outside your district had come with an idea for how you could change things.

Unknown Speaker 8:20
I would agree with that, yes,

Alec Patton 8:22
I want to know, on the sliding scale of skeptical to stoked. Zero is, like, full arms folded. Like, I mean, just here for the cookies, get me out of here. 100 is, like, this is the one I’m going for. It full. Where were you at initially?

Stephen 8:40
I would say initially I was in the 65 to 70, mostly because it was so new. And like, I can’t say this enough, and maybe it speaks to me being a novice as an educator at the time, and or even still, now to this day, because I’m always still learning. But just even the small things, like tree was talking about, like, bringing norms and all these things to these meetings. And I’m like, I’ve never sat in a room with people that have done this before. And then, lo and behold, you know, two years, three years later, I’m sitting in every professional development every meeting, and it’s like, oh, we’re gonna make some norms for this meeting. We’re gonna do this, and here’s how we’re gonna go about things. And like, I have to say, like, my hat’s off to Bank Street, because, like, that really took me from 70 to 100 like, I feel like they were always on the cutting edge of what was coming down and what really was going to be the shift in education. So, you know, once you start seeing things like that, and you’re like, This is great to begin with, but now I see, like, every time I have a conversation with somebody who’s not Bank Street, or I’m in a professional development session, or I’m in a workshop, I’m like, Oh, this is Bank Street. Oh, I do this in Bank Street. And so that really, like, took it from 70 to straight up to 100 and million.

Alec Patton 9:47
I think the other thing I’m hearing here is I started out before I was doing improving stuff. I was doing project based learning. And the thing that would always kill me is, like, when you’d have somebody telling you a. Out, you know, involved, like involving the students in rich inquiry, and they told it to you through a lecture. Whenever that happened, I would be like, you don’t seem to believe that the way that I should teach is the way that you should teach me. Yeah. And so I think there’s something really powerful when you can see that, that critical lens and that thinking about structure is being applied at every level.

Stephen 10:25
And the sessions, you’re right, the sessions mimicked, I mean, all of our convenings, I think, for all the 10 years that have been involved, like the big district wide convenings have been, you know, Saturday mornings, you know, 830 to one o’clock, 1230 like, four or five hour days. And, you know, the number one thing that always comes out is like, Oh, you’re going to Bank Street Saturday? Like, yeah, I got to go there. Like, yeah, I would really mind, because they’re five hours, but I got to say they pace it out, like, there’s a math thing. Then we move around and we do this, and you’re like, This is what we want to see in the classroom. And they’re practicing what they preach. So it just helps the buy in even more.

Alec Patton 10:59
Wow, those are strong words for five hours on Saturday.

Tarima 11:02
Yeah, I’m so glad to hear that we’re like, we have to feed them well,

Stephen 11:09
like, seriously, that is literally the comment, both as as a school leader and as a teacher. It’s always like, we got to go. But like, at least it’s that one, because at least it moves, and at least there’s always a good pacing, and there’s always something fun. And we always, wind up walking out of there learning something, and I feel like I had some fun and I feel refreshed, as opposed to, you know, Alec’s point of like, I sat there for five hours and listen to someone talk like about how fun and engaging lessons can be, but yet they just spoke at me for five hours. I mean, that’s it’s, you’re right. It’s totally counterintuitive.

Tarima 11:36
It was really super exciting. Mike and Elaine, who’s the director of numeracy in the district office, have been sort of CO presenting and CO designing the convenings, you know, as part of our sustainability plan. And so really appreciate it’s not just necessarily Bank Street coming anymore, but it’s like Bank Street in the district office. And we often have leaders and teachers be speakers on panels and share their work. Really love also the evolution of like, co owning that space so that we’re uplifting all the bright spots that are happening, that you all are doing.

Stephen 12:10
I would agree. I mean, and Mike, you you know how I feel about you, like, I mean, she’s right. I mean, hats off to you, in the sense that, again, you know, when we’re all sitting there, it’s not just Bank Street, just Bank Street just talking at us anymore. And you’re right, I didn’t even realize the evolution because it occurred so seamlessly. But it’s like, you know, now, okay, it’s not just the Bank Street people talking like, it’s Mike, it’s a lane. It’s everybody like, so everybody’s involved here.

Michael 12:34
Well, I think that was, you know, as a result of, you know, when the initiative was moved under, you know, my scope of responsibility in central office, I wanted to be intentional, of like peeking behind the curtain and see what is it that Bank Street is thinking about when they design these sessions and working with schools and teachers and leaders and so on. Because, you know, in our meetings, we always spoke a lot about like this through line for learning, and you know how we support leaders and teachers and so on. But until you’re actually like in a session, co planning and having discussions around how this can look and what the design process is like, before it reaches the network, you don’t realize the level of intentionality that Bank Street brought to the work. And so it was really powerful as a leader in central office to be able to learn more about the process in the planning of it. And then I think it sends a really strong message to schools when it’s not just, you know, an external partner that is facilitating, but ultimately, like in partnership with, you know, whoever is overseeing the work in central office, I think it helps develop more credibility and a certain level of buy in to the work, in a sense that, like, not everybody is bought in from The Start, like not everybody started at a 6570 like Steve was mentioning, and some people needed a little bit more to convince them to really come on board and hit the ground running. And so I think you, you cast a wider net when you you show that there’s this true partnership and a true commitment to the work from, you know, district, and you know, all these other stakeholders involved.

Alec Patton 14:24
Now I want to move us to 2018 the math focused network starts for real. There’s been there’s been pilot stuff. You’ve been doing ELA stuff, and now it’s like you’ve moved on to this math problem about students who are black, Latinx and or experiencing poverty, disproportionately unprepared for success in upper grades, mathematics you’re tackling that anyone can start with this from your experience, how did, how did you start?

Stephen 14:52
One of the great things again, with the the sense of community, with the entire partnership with Bank Street. And with, you know, cooperation from district office was it took a lot of courageous conversations. And I know that’s like the overused term these days, but it really did, because I remember sitting, I think it was at yma in the library, and we’re doing a fishbone, and we’re going through and, you know, just all these conversations of things that have come up over the years, and talking about equitable grading, and what are we looking at? And do we really need to start looking at race and economic stat like, you know, these are, these are conversations, and where from the like, Ah, we’re doing ELA, and we’re doing this, and we’re just talking about math scores and, like, contemplating what errors they might make, but then really getting deep into those conversations, and that was a big shift in that, in the sense that it really had to open up with some really deep conversations,

Alec Patton 15:50
I am curious to know, like, when you’re saying the challenging conversations, is it specifically, because you were talking explicitly about race? Is that what was different?

Stephen 15:58
Some of it, and then, you know, other parts of it are, you know, like Mike said, eventually, when you have 39 schools and you have, you know, 20 something of them sitting in a room, you know, you have a lot of different experiences from people you know throughout the district, whether they’re administrators, team leaders, you know, teachers and you know, I remember one day we got on a conversation of just grading, and it really became a forum on equitable grading practices and just hearing people’s different perspectives of, you know what they feel or what their opinions are, and you know what they think. You know, you’ve got to pull yourself up by the bootstraps people, and you’ve got, you know, people were like, No, we should really examine their circumstance. You know, circumstances outside of other people’s control, like, what are we really grading on? What does that number represent. So not specific to race. I know it comes into it, because obviously it’s it’s evident in the problem of practice. But just having that many people with different experiences and different lenses looking through their practice, whether it be as a leader, as a teacher, just having those conversations on any front,

Michael 17:01
I think a lot of the difficult conversations in this kind of work comes in with, like, the level of vulnerability that is required to actually engage in continuous improvement work. So, like, you have to be very reflective, you have to be able to try something, measure it, and it may fail and pivot. And I don’t think that a lot of educators, from the start, if they’re like, not exposed to this and in their careers in advance, some some people struggle with that vulnerability and accepting that something they might be doing might not be the most effective or efficient strategy for student improvement, and I might have to pivot and try something else. And so I think some of the conversations that I had with teachers when I started as a part of this network was more about shifting mindset around, like our collective learning and demonstrating a certain level of vulnerability that’s necessary to move the work forward.

Alec Patton 18:03
I don’t know about Yonkers, but I know New York City specifically, certainly, like data had been used, really, to, like, scare teachers. I mean, I remember a district level administrator from New York City. This must have been in like, 2010 told me, like, proudly, one of the things we did was injected fear in the system. That was his phrase, and I’ve never forgotten it, because he was like, Yeah, we basically, we got people scared. Like, that’s how we improve things. So I’m, I’m always conscious that, like everybody who’s trying to get teachers to look at data and be vulnerable about data is coming on a backdrop of teachers, like, really afraid of what’s going to happen and feeling really like, like they’re like, the data is basically has been weaponized as a way of, like, making them either feel bad about themselves or actually, you know, suffer material consequences. So like, how did you create a space where you could talk openly, honestly about data and about where people were struggling.

Michael 19:08
I mean, the work started before I came to the district, but I can honestly say that I think through the deliberate and intentional planning of safe spaces, like some of the things were alluded to. You know, there were cohort meetings that were pulled together for teachers. There were these convenings that happened on Saturdays. And every time teachers came together as part of a network, there was really an intentionality to design, to make it feel like a network, and to help people feel more comfortable as a part of the network. And so there were, like tarima mentioned earlier, everybody either did math with each other as part of these sessions or engaged in some kind of design challenge, so that if you didn’t. Know people that were a part of the network, there was an opportunity for you to, like, genuinely build a sense of team, so that when it came to the difficult data conversations, now it’s with somebody that you know you just had a laugh with 20 minutes prior because you were trying to build this boat and it just didn’t float, or whatever the case may be. So like engaging people as humans and helping to build those relationships, I think were really important so that they naturally felt more comfortable. And I think over time, I think they needed to develop a certain level of trust that this data was not being used as a gotcha, like you described earlier, but it was really being used for improvement, and I think that only came with time and experience as part of the network. It wasn’t like an initial trust for everybody, but I think it came with time when they saw how the data was being used and how it was being used to, like, propel the whole network forward for our collective learning.

Tarima 20:57
No, I would just add, just to piggyback off of what Mike and Steve said. You know, we design sessions, and there’s teachers and leaders in the space, and so we know that there’s dynamics that can come about. And so we’re really intentional about holding space for both the district staff and school leaders to sort of set the conditions for CI. And so we’re fortunate that the district really values CI and embedded CI and practices in their district plans. And then we sort of share with school leaders our four keys to success, really creating that trust so that when they’re in the room with teachers, they don’t feel like they’re being they have to be performative or compliant, but that it’s really a learning space. And so those four keys include both creating the right team and protective time and making sure that it feels aligned to their school building priorities, but also like asking the leaders how they’re going to adopt a learning stance, right? So the leaders aren’t there sort of doing work or facilitating, but they’re sitting elbow to elbow with the teachers, and I think that creates relational trust and the ability for folks to be vulnerable, because their school leader isn’t there to sort of take notes and use it when they get back to, you know, their school building on Monday, but really learning alongside them, and they have their own breakouts and their own sort of work alongside the teachers.

Alec Patton 22:23
One thing that I just I always wonder about this is like two things are true. One is that you need to be able to have people in a space where they can feel vulnerable about sharing, and that space needs to be protected. But another thing that’s true is that as a school administrator, as a school leader, there are teachers on your staff who you have serious concerns about, I’m not saying right now at your school, but that is a thing that happens in schools. And so I always wonder, when you’re like, This isn’t you know, we’re not gonna use this data to punish you, but you’re also like, I actually have some real concerns about this teacher. How do you, how do how do you let both of those things be true?

Stephen 23:10
It’s a good question. Like, in the context of of the CI work with Bank Street, I feel like it’s a bit of a different question, because while, yes, I may have concerns, a lot of the data that we’re looking at, say, from a PDSA cycle or something like that, we know, you know, as a change idea, if something’s going to fail, it fails. So I think that breeds some of the comfortability that’s there. But I think also, too, when, if you’re thinking about a teacher that you may have concerns with, or something like that, that’s a different conversation in a different context, in a different setting. And while they’re connected, I feel like there’s a place to make space for both of them, because when you’re sitting with a team, you’re kind of looking at everyone’s data as a whole, and if they happen to be the outlier, that can be a conversation that the team has, and therefore it makes it a little bit more comfortable. But then when it comes to other things that maybe I observe, or other school leaders observe, I feel like they wind up being, you know, a little bit different in their setting. And so it’s understood that, like, we can separate. And, you know, I know, for me personally, I think it helps that people know I was part of the network as a teacher, so I kind of know what it’s like being in their shoes. And the other part of it is as a math person my entire life, like I look at the numbers and go, okay, like, these are numbers. What are they telling us? Not, you know, it’s personal with you. It’s just that, what is it telling us and what do we need to look at deeper?

Michael 24:43
I also think that the continuous improvement model and framework that we explored as a network, it empowers leadership to support teachers that you have a concern about, so like, if. Concern is their instructional practice, and they’re not necessarily integrating effective strategies that support student learning. Now there’s a shared language and understanding for continuous improvement, where the leader can literally coach that teacher and say, well, let’s dive into what’s happening here and identify a root cause. Let’s identify something that we can do that would support an improvement, and then like, Let’s measure some data on it and do some data cycles. So whereas, prior to launching some of this, I feel like some of our leaders probably felt a little bit more limited in their ability to have a structure or support, to like work with a struggling teacher. I feel like this is a framework that can support their coaching and the learning of that struggling teacher that they have serious concerns about.

Alec Patton 25:56
I mean, I think often it’s not like the biggest concern with a teacher isn’t necessarily like what they’re doing in their classroom. It’s if they’re completely unable or unwilling to be reflective about what they’re doing in their classroom that because then it’s like, because then there’s nowhere to go, like anybody can improve, but if you aren’t there to kind of like, do that improvement. So so having that continuous, import, proven framework, I can see that is actually, like, really helpful to get into that, that mindset—

Stephen 26:25
Just to piggyback on what Mike said, like he’s 100% right, because now you come from a point of, okay, like we’re going to look at data now, like we’re not, we’re all together, we’re, you know, I’ve done it with staff, you know, full staff. I’ve done it with, you know, teachers, others. But to have that kind of place to lean on and say, okay, like, we’re just looking at the numbers. So like, what can we do? And what can we try? And people kind of come in from this place of like, Oh, okay. And then all of a sudden they see some recruitment or something doesn’t work. Okay, let’s just go back to the drawing board, because it’s a mind shift. Like everyone’s kind of in the boat. Now,

Michael 26:58
to your point, if the if the concern is that the teacher is that the teacher is just not engaging, you know, honestly. And in my experience here in Yonkers, you know, buy in comes when you see results and when you see the data. And so what we’ve done in a variety of different settings, not to the extreme that, you know, you mentioned the example from New York City, but, you know, we’ll do some strategic shout outs of certain things. So like, look at this school or this teacher’s classroom, and, you know, all the fantastic improvement that we saw as a result of X, Y and Z, and, you know, hear the practices that they incorporated, and it’s hard to argue with data like that. So a lot of our teachers that may be resistant at first might see some results, see some success in certain areas that maybe they weren’t expecting, and be like, All right, maybe I should give this a shot. And I think that’s not immediate. That comes with time. But I think if you’re like relentless in outlining, this is our philosophy, this is how we’re going to look at data, and this is how we’re going to act on it, and then over time, we see results. Now you start bringing some more of those folks on board with you.

Stephen 28:08
I actually shared data with one of my teachers recently. You know, this teacher’s newer in the CI kind of work, and it’s bought in and is there. But I don’t think really had like, the grab you moment. But when I sat this teacher down, I was like, listen, regardless of what anyone says, I watched you do this protocol. They were working on, like, with repeat and revise, because they kind of felt like they were in a rut. And they were like, I feel like we just can’t get past the repeat. I feel like we just can’t get past the repeat. Like I want to get to revise, but they’re just not there, and they’re, you know, in their discourse. But then when I sat this teacher down, I was like, Look, you’re not even done with window three yet. And literally, you know, your median growth on your i Ready is 84% meaning that, like, your average kids almost meeting their growth and you feel like you were in a rut. Like, look at how far you’ve come. Y ou had kids grow by 267% of their growth score. And he’s like, What? Like, you know, like, those are powerful conversations that

Alec Patton 29:00
And what’s what’s I ready? And window three?

Michael 29:03
I-ready is our screener, or one of the screeners that we use for math in grades K through eight. So three times a year, we take a diagnostic exam, and the focus is on growth from start of year to end of year, so we can see how students progress in their their learning from where they test in September to how they test in May or June.

Alec Patton 29:25
All right, awesome. Now, I want to know what your other go to norms are.

Tarima 29:30
I think trust the process

Stephen 29:32
that’s always one, yes, the 76ers all the way.

Tarima 29:37
You know, I think it takes a lot of relational trust and vulnerability, as we all said, structures and the willingness to just trust the process. And I think as you shared, as soon as folks sort of see the results, I think it just gives them momentum to keep on trying and actually including other teachers in the network that aren’t OFFICIAL. People where they’re spreading the good word. And so I think trusting the process is really, really important norm to keep in mind.

Alec Patton 30:07
And where are you finding your math problems that you start with?

Tarima 30:11
Originally, we wanted folks to have really rich, open ended experiences, and so we would have problems that you know were more open ended, and then we got feedback that they weren’t necessarily reflective of the types of experiences that they were using in the classrooms, and it didn’t feel connected to the curriculum. And so we started using i Ready problems, put a little flavor on them. And then recently, we just started doing design challenges. And the design challenges are sort of like stem slash math slash sort of teaming, because we know a lot of this work is about teaming and relationships and consensus building. And so the last two or three convenings, we’ve just, you know, wanted to give folks the space just to be creative and design and then make those math connections on the back end.

Stephen 31:07
I’m so glad you mentioned that, because I was holding back before for, oh, equity of voice is another good norm for equity of voice purposes, just because, like when you know you and Mike were talking about how it became a partnership between Bank Street and the district to kind of intentionally design all of these sessions. You know, one of the shifts that I noticed was that it became more specific to some of the problems being i Ready, and I think in terms of those teachers who maybe were new to the network because they had moved schools or moved positions, or whatever it was like, getting that buy in is so much easier and faster, seeing like, oh, I can apply this to what I’m doing right now, as opposed to being like, Oh, we just have this cute math problem, but I’m never going to do this because it’s, you know, I got to get through i Ready, or I got to get through this lesson. Or so seeing those types of things also to kind of builds that trust and opens that space for vulnerability, of like, oh, okay, so this is actually useful to me,

Michael 32:01
and actually from a leadership perspective, and the conversations that like tarima and her team had with central office, we wanted to really find a way to shift some of the mindset for some of our folks, which was that, Like, they viewed continuous improvement as like another thing that they had to do, as opposed to a framework they can lean on as just, you know, good teaching and, you know, refining their practice. And so I think having it be more aligned to the instructional focus of the disc of the district, which was mathematical discourse, and then using, you know, materials that they can then bring their planning right back to their classrooms. For some folks, help them see that this is something you can do in your schools and your classrooms without the support of Bank Street or central office or it’s just good practice, and it’s not another thing. It’s like just how we learn and move forward, you know, as good educators,

Alec Patton 33:14
okay, from my perspective, one of the core tensions in almost every NSI or network school improvement is that, on the one hand, you’re like, Hey, there’s this thing that you all need to implement with fidelity, and on the other hand, you have this like you all are professionals who we are going to help do experiments in your own practice. And like, on the face of it, those feel like directly opposite things to me, because one is like, just do the thing, and on the flip side is where teachers have sort of said, like, well, I’m doing this thing with fidelity, and the kids all tell me they hate it. And it’s like been through the kind of like improvement process in the PD essays that they’ve kind of figured out ways of of of altering it so they kind of get the best out of it. So I’m just curious, like, if that felt like attention to you folks, and how you kind of navigate that.

Stephen 34:10
I mean, I think a lot of it evolved over time again, just being on both sides of the chair for the most part, just seeing how you know, where we were in the beginning, with looking at this and choosing whatever our highest leverage is going to be, whereas, you know, as we got down to it, and now in the later years, looking at different options, and there was really a focus on the like. Are we going to adapt? Are we going to abandon and like? Now that the bar had been set to be like, it’s okay to fail at this, or it’s okay to get feedback that it’s not working, that we can move along. Like, I think that really helps in general, because it just kind of moves the conversation forward. It’s like, yeah, do the thing, but if the thing’s not working, so then what is working? Because that’s like, that’s. Really what it’s come down to, like, the shift has been not so much what’s not working, it’s what is working and how. So if we try something, what’s the piece we can glean from it, if there’s anything, and then move forward with that. So it kind of presents a little bit of autonomy, but at the same time structured in something where it’s like, okay, give this a shot,

Michael 35:18
Right, and I think that there was a lot of intentional planning from the Bank Street Team in terms of, you know, creating a shared experience for the network by, like the construction of their driver diagram, but then allowing teams within the network to have the autonomy to decide on their theory of improvement. So we’re all working on the same thing. So this year’s focus was mathematical discourse, but I might be a school in the network that’s addressing it through this particular theory of improvement, where, you know, Steve at school 16 is operating under a different theory of improvement, but we can come back together as a network, and we can discuss what worked and didn’t work, because we have a shared experience of all working on mathematical discourse. So I think there’s, there’s a way to be tight and loose at the same time, which is a challenge, but with a lot of intentional planning, is definitely possible. And so Bank Street helped us kind of navigate that tight and loose structure.

Tarima 36:30
And I feel like because Mike the district vision was around discourse, the CI sort of theories of improvement supported teachers to actually enact what that means in the context of their curriculum. The curriculum requires discussion, and so I think the structures and the resources and the tools and the shared language was supportive of sort of the not only the district vision, but what good classroom discourse looks like. And so I feel like it sort of connects the dots in that way. So you’re implementing a curriculum to quote, unquote fidelity, but you’re also in that process using resources to engage in conversations across grades, that is really curriculum agnostic. So it is this structured but loose sort of thing that’s happening, you know, like when we say discourse too, we often, you know, ask the five whys like, why are we doing discourse? You know, we know that talking is important and it builds culture, and kids feel more invested. But for the network meaningful discourse, the purpose is so that the class has a shared understanding of mathematical ideas, and so if they have support in sharing their thinking, then hopefully, then the teacher will be able to then engage them in different ways, to either, you know, expand their thinking, offer alternative ways of thinking, and that ultimately will lead to stronger conceptual understanding in math. And so I know we’ve been talking about discourse a lot, but I think the teachers know that there’s a purpose that’s connected to mathematical understanding. So I just wanted to make sure that that was that’s in the space, and

Alec Patton 38:29
that’s fitting, because I feel like discourse has been what we’ve been talking about at every level in this whole conversation.

Tarima 38:35
Yeah, and creating practice space, like it’s a practice space for teachers to do lesson planning and talk with one another, and so I think part of this work too is making sure that we all have practice spaces, the leaders at district office us, so that we’re able to show up being as intentional and planful as possible. As Steve said,

Alec Patton 38:57
Awesome. Thank you all so much. This has been an absolute pleasure.

Stephen 39:01
Thank you. Thank you.

Tarima 39:03
Thank you. Super excited that you invited us, and I’m glad that it worked out.

Alec Patton 39:09
High Tech High Unboxed is hosted by me, Alec Patton, with editing by Yessenia Moreno. Our team is by brother Herschel. Huge thanks to Tarima Levine, Stephen Rinaldo and Michael McDonald for this conversation. We’ve got links in the show notes, including more information about that instructional core triangle and a written case study of Yonkers work on math on track, also the curriculum they were using. Was I ready mathematics? We’ve got a link to learn more about that too. Thanks for listening.