Carlos Moreno:
If we show up fragmented, and hurt, then, we cannot help anyone else. So it was a reminder of what I had learned, from working at the Met, and within Big Picture, but, then, also, putting into practice… I was like, “All right, put yourself out there. If you’re going to do this, and tell the stories of others, you need to connect it to yourself.”, also, because there are so many shared similarities that I had with these three young men.

Alec Patton:
This is High Tech High Unboxed. I’m Alec Patton, and this episode is being recorded live, at the 2024 Deeper Learning Conference in San Diego, California. Welcome to everybody in the room. Good to have you here. Yeah, make some noise. All right. There, we go. There, we go. Thank you. All right, to introduce this episode’s speaker, and to tell you all how this is all going to work, here is High Tech High Graduate School of Education, Director of Liberation. You know her, you love her… Dr. Michelle Sadrina Pledger.

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
Thank you, Alec. Thank you. Welcome, everyone, to Deeper Learning Den 2024. This den is called Finding Your Leadership Soul. Today, we have with us, in conversation, Co-executive Director of Big Picture Learning, and author of Finding Your Leadership Soul, Carlos Moreno.

Carlos Moreno:
All right.

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
And, we, also, have founder of Big Picture Learning, and Director of New Forms, also, author of Learning to Leave: How Real-World Learning Transforms Education, Elliot Washor.

Elliot Washor:
All right.

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
I’ll give you a brief overview of how the Den format works, and, then, we’ll get started. So, for about the first 25 minutes, Elliot, and Carlos will be in conversation, and we’re just kind of eavesdropping on their conversation. We don’t know what Elliot’s going to ask Carlos. We don’t know how Carlos is going to respond, and we’re just like in the room, listening. And, then, about 25 minutes in, I will signal both of them that now is a great time for us to move to audience Q & A, and you’ll be able to ask all your questions. We just really want to make sure that you have a microphone before you, actually, ask the question, because we are doing a recording.
We have opposite of Vegas Rules in the den. What happens in the den, we, actually, want you to share that learning, widely, with all your people, right? Because you’re going to hear some great insights from these two beautiful people. What questions do we have before we get started?
All right, let’s give it up, one more time, for Carlos, and Elliot.

Elliot Washor:
All right. Well, hello, everybody. Thanks for being here. I’m going to ask Carlos more questions rather than a conversation, I think, but you never know what’s going to happen.

Carlos Moreno:
You never know what’s going to happen.

Elliot Washor:
But I will say this. So I’m on my way to South by Southwest, and I’m in the airport, and the plane was late from San Diego to Austin. And I ended up meeting Eric, there, and a whole host of other people for about three hours, and by the time I was done, I didn’t have to go to South by Southwest, because I met everybody I needed to meet. But my point is I’m sitting there, and… I’m not sitting there, I’m walking around, because I never sit at an airport. I can’t sit, anyway.
I’m seeing Eric, and he’s got this out. That’s right, and he’s got a pencil, a pen in his hand. He’s got the thing all like this. Every page is creased over. He’s right. I said, “Shit. Nobody ever did that to my book.” I know. What the hell? There’s your guy, he loved it. I’m telling you that. And I did, too, of course. And I know the people in the book, quite a few of them, especially, Bella from when she was this big, literally. So it’s personal, not personalized, which is different than personal. You do something to somebody when it’s personalized. And this is a book that’s very, very personal. And I worked with Carlos a little bit, just bouncing ideas off, here, and there.

Carlos Moreno:
A little bit?

Elliot Washor:
Yeah, a little. No, no. He took a long time to write this book, and there’s very good reasons for that. It’s a really, really personal book, and hard to tell the stories. But, that said, I’m going to do a little bit of a format, since I’m a jazz guy, but there’s no music here. So I’m going to start with a few names of songs, as I go through this, and ask you some questions about the book. And the first one is A Love Supreme by John Coltrane, because this is a Love Supreme, this book, and love looms large in the book.
So this is about how the book was written, I want to ask you a question about that. So there’s letters in the book, to people. There’s data in the book. There’s stories in the book, and it’s a book written in an unusual way. So I want you to talk about why, and how you chose to write this book the way you did.

Carlos Moreno:
First, I want to acknowledge how special it feels for me to be able to sit, here, with Elliot. To be able to sit with someone who is even… Let’s say, hopefully, we’ve all had moments in our journey where we, perhaps, didn’t feel like we were worthy or capable, but someone else saw something in you, and lifted you up in that way. That has been Elliot from day one, so this is special, right?
And because the book is so deeply personal, I’ve been able, to this moment, be able to control who I’m in conversation with. So coming to San Diego, of course, I wanted to do this. I appreciate it, and your belief in this book is deeply important. And I never wanted to be an author. I never sought out to be an author, I promise you. But, in my journey as a teacher, and as a principal, I encountered some pretty amazing young people in that journey that really shifted, and impacted not just how I lead, and how I teach, but how I show up in the world.
And there were these, specifically, three young men that are the center of this book who, sadly, are no longer with us. And I wanted to a), first, do something that really honor their memory, and their impact, but, also, an opportunity for us to, hopefully, start thinking about how we approach teaching, and learning as a much more bidirectional engagement with young people. Which I think, also, is deeply centered in humanity, and the need for us to continue to bring that into the profession, and not lose track of that.
Fortunately enough, someone reached out, and asked me if I was interested in writing a book. I had been floating it around with my dear friend, and longtime colleague, Chris Jackson, around, “If I wrote a book, this is what I would do.” And I went down this journey, and I had no idea how to go about it. So I’d, also, received a lot of support, and I wanted to do something that was… Folks, I’ll, often, ask, “What do you want to change?”, right? Or, “How do you want people to react to your book when they read it?” And I was like, “I think I want them to a) pause, and think about their interactions with young people in a very different way.” But, even more so, folks that support the adults that work with young people is, how do you love on them, support them, and show up for them in a different way that allows them to do their very best for our babies?
And I wanted people to say it was beautiful, right? It was personal, it was beautiful. And, then, in that, I, also, wanted it to be… Because it’s easy to live in the space of sadness, because you’re talking about a bit of loss, but there’s,, also a lot of hope. And I hope that folks see that, as you get towards the end because there’s some powerful stories, and letters to some young people who are thriving, and doing amazing things in this world.
And this thing around vulnerability, right? This openness that I think is just necessary for us on how we show up. Not, necessarily, just with our young people, but for each other. We’re, too often, showing up with our representatives. And I think two things that you saw really beautifully, earlier, today, in the open plenary was, you saw Michelle, and Dina not show up with their representatives. Their full selves, who they were, going with the flow. And I think that we just need that more in this space.

Elliot Washor:
Yeah. Yeah. So, once, again, this book has not just the stories of young people, but your own story in it, and talking about being vulnerable, when, most of us, we tell stories about ourselves, but we kind of don’t share them in writing, and talk about how that felt, and what that meant to you, in putting this book together.

Carlos Moreno:
I’ll share that Elliot, and I, intentionally, did not connect as to what he was going to ask me. These pauses that you see, they’re not theatrical. They’re like real pauses. I’m like, “All right, I’m not sure where you’re going to go next. Okay.” So this is very real. You can keep that in the podcast. So the intro, again, great guidance that I got, and suggestions around using the letter format to tell stories about these young folk. I struggled, really deeply, with how to start that off.
And I decided, and landed on getting to a point where I wrote a letter to my younger self, at a time where I was, definitely, that I can recall, probably, most vulnerable, most hurt, and had just had a pretty traumatic experience. Happened to me as a 15-year-old young man, I was robbed at gunpoint, on my way home from school by two dudes, and I just spiraled, after that. I went from… Actually, I do have a picture, I think. Wait. I went from that, right? A very kind, and happy, and kind of go-with-the-flow young man to someone that was in the streets.
I became a real different person, and, specifically, because of safety reasons, right? I started hanging out with the cats on the block, because I was going to make sure that, and they were going to help make sure that that didn’t happen to me anymore. And that’s not a rare story. This is what we, often, see in young people, in a variety of communities, and the choices that they make. And we think they’re just making them to make them, but there’s an underlying story, and reason for that. I was in that space, so what I chose to do, as an opening in the book, is to write a letter to my younger self, and say all the things I had wished someone would’ve said to me in that time. So I didn’t have to make some of the decisions that I made.
And I think, for me, it emphasizes the importance of us, when we’re working with young people, or supporting folks that work with young people is to do our inner child work, and make sure that we’re well before we try to help others. Right? If we show up fragmented, and hurt, then, we cannot help anyone else. So it was a reminder of what I had learned, from working at the Met, and within Big picture, but, then, also, putting into practice. I was like, “All right, put yourself out there. If you’re going to do this, and tell the stories of others, you need to connect it to yourself.” Also, because there are so many shared similarities that I had with these three young men.
All young men of color. All coming from urban communities. All coming from loving homes. Right? Which we don’t, often, say, but, also, came from-

Elliot Washor:
That’s right.

Carlos Moreno:
… very loving homes with parents that cared for them, and did their very best for them. And that there were still all these other factors that they just couldn’t control, societal factors and beyond. So I chose to start that journey that way, write that letter to myself.

Elliot Washor:
Yeah. That’s one of the things that make this book very, very unique, and the whole process of the book, as it unfolds, is like that, without giving too much away, for those of you who haven’t read it, like Eric. But there’s, also, a song by Nat King Cole, Three Little Words. In different words-

Carlos Moreno:
Go ahead, Elliot.

Elliot Washor:
One of them is love, but it’s vulnerability, love and care. Like T-L-C, V-L-C. And a lot of times, now, people talk about leadership as a science, teaching as a science. This book has data in it, lots of it. It has the science side, but it, also, has the craft side of finding your Leadership Soul, which is… I, always, think of our work as craft, not as science. So I’d love for you to talk about how you found, and everybody finding their Leadership Soul, through a craft, and, as well, through… Yep, you got to have the research, you got to know what’s going on.

Carlos Moreno:
Yeah. So I, firmly, believe we’re all informed. Our lived experiences informs who we are as people, and we continue to grow, and learn, and evolve, and that never stops. It’s not like, “Oh, you’re, now, 30-something. You’re a leader of an organization.” You’re still growing, and evolving, and learning, and the experiences that you’re having, impact how you show up. I feel like my foundation around Leadership Soul was the support, and what I had at home with my parents. And I do talk about that in different experiences, and moments that I had that I felt really well, and deeply, supported.
So that was the first layer, and, then, there’s college. I talk about all these things, but it’s interesting you say that. So these young folks are my advisory. So, then, I landed at the Met, Big Pictures founding school, and I met these 16 amazing young people who I got to spend four years with, as their teacher, as their mentor, as their guide. And, now, we’ve evolved into this really deep friendship. And one of the things that I learned, and young people, always, tell you. They’ll remind you and show you what you don’t know.
They will, absolutely, point you out. And they can, also, show you some grace. They can, also, show you some grace. So there are a number of instances, over the course of four years, and if you consider being with the same group of 16 young people-

Elliot Washor:
I know.

Carlos Moreno:
… over four years, and working with them, really deeply, and wanting to get to know, and understand all their interests, and what they’re excited about. Knowing their families. Knowing their families, and, over time, you learn their histories. It gives you a very different perspective on a lot of things.
So the development of Leadership Soul, what I appreciated about making the leap into education as a non-traditional educator, was that I wasn’t forced to just become a technical educator. There’s a conversation that, currently, exists, and I heard Dina say it, earlier, and I’ve said it in a slightly different way, is that “If you love the idea of teaching X…” Enter whatever content area, right? “… More than you love the idea of working with young people, you, absolutely-

Elliot Washor:
That’s right.

Carlos Moreno:
… should not be in the profession.” You can’t love your content area, or this idea of working in this very, just singular way where young people are not singular. We’re not singular people, right? So that, in essence, is a big part of what Leadership Soul is. It’s like this focus on the humanity. It’s the way, with these young people, how they demonstrated love, and care, and vulnerability towards me. In ways that I just didn’t expect, because of the design, and because the way we were set up.

Elliot Washor:
Yeah. I’m going to read something from the book.

Carlos Moreno:
No, you’re not.

Elliot Washor:
Well, I can have you read it.

Carlos Moreno:
No, I don’t want to read it. I don’t want to read. I don’t want read it. I don’t want to read it.

Elliot Washor:
But it plays into, almost, exactly, what you said. I didn’t know that was going to happen.

Carlos Moreno:
Oh, good job.

Elliot Washor:
And the title of this song is by Pearl Bailey, A Little Learning Is a Dangerous Thing. In your book, you state, “Education reform efforts have only exacerbated these persistent inequalities by advocating policies, and practices that ignore structural barriers, like racism, segregation, and poverty. Too many, currently, celebrated ideologies, and practices suggests that attitude adjustments, self-control, grit, and bootstrapping are the foundations of success. These out of touch pedagogical approaches alienate black, and brown students, and diminish the invaluable role of informal learning experiences. The love I speak of, throughout this book, transforms caring, and vulnerability, and is at the heart of my Leadership Soul. Caring, without love, is intellectual, and technical, bounded and constrained.”
And it really does speak to what you said about the technical part of what this is, and the craft that you must develop with young people as you do this work. So can you respond to that paragraph, a little bit more? About the policy side of it? About the policy side-

Carlos Moreno:
Oh, man.

Elliot Washor:
That this was presented to educators, in Professional Development and Teacher Training, for 20 years, and researchers, by the way. And, yet, it goes against a lot of what we know as craft, and Leadership Soul.

Carlos Moreno:
Yeah. I’m going to go out. I’m going to say something, and, then, I’m going to allow this to stay in the podcast, if that’s cool. So I won’t name the names, but when I transitioned from being school-based… I’ll give an example to what you’re asking, and you’ll remember this because I was pissed.
When I transitioned from being school-based to working within systems, or with systems, I had moved from Providence to New Jersey, and I was doing work with Newark Public Schools. Some amazing educators, and folk in Newark, New Jersey. Just amazing humans. And, when I arrived, there had been some changes in district leadership, and I remember that you joined me for a meeting.

Elliot Washor:
I know what you’re talking about.

Carlos Moreno:
My hands are shaking, right? That’s how tight I am. We’re not going to talk about… Then, I remember this. And, y’all, this is 13 years ago?

Elliot Washor:
At least, yeah.

Carlos Moreno:
This is 13 years ago. This is 13 years ago. 12 to 13 years ago. And I remember that this new leader of the district, this new superintendent had came in, and was meeting with all these folks that were starting new schools. In fact, that we were asked to open, right? We were invited. We didn’t pitch, we didn’t sell. We were asked to open this new innovative school that centered young people, which is what we had been doing in many places, which we had a really powerful example in Camden, New Jersey that was thriving, and doing amazing work. So the proof, even, within the same state, existed, same population.
And I sat there, and explained, with tremendous, detail to this new superintendent about what this model was, and how we do it. And they, also, asked a lot of questions, and thoughtful questions, then, I felt. And, at the end, all I remember hearing is, “Oh, that’s really hard to do.” And I’m like, “You damn right, it’s really hard to do.”, right? Yeah, it is. Yeah, it’s not easy, right?

Elliot Washor:
Oh, yeah.

Carlos Moreno:
And totally killed the opening of the school, after we had, successfully, recruited 150 families that I, personally, was out in front of, recruiting to come to the school. Right. I am out in the community, telling families about this school. And we’d been around, at that point, for 20 years. We had proof points across the country, and in the state. We had data.

Elliot Washor:
We had data.

Carlos Moreno:
It was hard. It’s hard, no doubt. And gave really no excuse, and no support in helping me, and us find alternative placements for those families. So we had to kind of bootstrap it, ourselves, and we figured it out. Fortunately, we had some other schools, already, in the community, so it was just like, “Here’s the other option. It’s not the new school, but…” But I share that example because that’s what it is. It’s this notion of what is hard. Often, folks are asking, because it’s so difficult to do. And my response is, always, like, “Yes, it is hard, and we’ve figured out ways to do it.” And I think that that’s a model.
That’s one model, but there’s so many other models that exist that are doing amazing work, and have figured it out. But “Because it’s hard.”, is not a reason not to do it, and that’s what gets me hot. When you give me that, that’s your reason and that we’re not going to do it’s hard? That means you just want something that’s simple. You want something that you can cookie cut. You want something that you can easily scale, right?

Elliot Washor:
Right.

Carlos Moreno:
And you’re not thinking about the individuals, right? You’re not thinking about the impact. You’re not considering all the other things. So, for me, that’s one of the main reasons why I believe that it’s been so hard, and different, not just for us, but for some others to get some traction in some of these things, because the questions around how difficult it is. What are all the things that you need to do to be able to get there?

Elliot Washor:
How much time we got? Before…

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
Three and a half minutes-

Elliot Washor:
What?

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
… before-

Carlos Moreno:
Before questions? Before questions.

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
At least, I think.

Elliot Washor:
You kidding? Three and a half minutes? All right.

Carlos Moreno:
Absolutely.

Elliot Washor:
I got it.

Carlos Moreno:
What Michelle said. What Michelle said, Elliot. We do what Michelle says, here.

Elliot Washor:
I know that.

Carlos Moreno:
Yeah. Yeah.

Elliot Washor:
I’m just asking.
So Nat King Cole’s brother, Freddie Cole, wrote a song… And you don’t know, probably, who Freddie Cole is, but he’s incredible.

Carlos Moreno:
Don’t assume they don’t know. They might know. They might know.

Elliot Washor:
Who knows?

Carlos Moreno:
They might know.

Elliot Washor:
I give you a free book, if you know. No. No.
So he wrote a song called What Now, My Love? So what, now? You have Ashe. Equity Fellows, which is an instantiation, and an example, and people may not know Ashe and Equity Fellows in the room. An instantiation of your beliefs that manifest in Leadership Soul. There’s no two ways about it. That’s what these two initiatives do. So What Now, My Love?, there’s examples. Talk about, Ashe, Equity Fellows, and talk about, “What now?”

Carlos Moreno:
Yeah, I’m loving the music theme thing.

Elliot Washor:
Thank you.

Carlos Moreno:
That’s fly. I appreciate that.
So I think those are all not, necessarily, just extensions of me, and Leadership Soul, but extensions of us as an organization.

Elliot Washor:
Beautiful.

Carlos Moreno:
So I just need to say that, right? Because, in every one of those initiatives, it’s not just a Carlos initiative. It’s been in community, and in great thinking, with a lot of folks across the organization, so it’s who we are, right?

Elliot Washor:
That’s right.

Carlos Moreno:
So the two fellowships, Equity Fellows is one that is focused on supporting K through 12 leaders, from all levels. So it is from your teacher leaders to your state superintendents. We’ve had this really beautiful mix of folks, in any given cohort, that is not just for folks who have held a certain level. Right? It’s an opportunity to bring together all the folks that impact schools, and systems together, to learn together, grow, and, then, have an impact to bring deep learning practices to their particular community. So we’re really proud of Equity Fellows. We’re on our sixth cohort, and, hopefully, we’ll be launching the seventh in the new year. New calendar year.
Ashe is a newer one. It’s inspired by Equity Fellows-

Elliot Washor:
Ashe.

Carlos Moreno:
And Ashe… Ashe Leaders Fellows, which was co-designed with our friends at the Hewlett Foundation who were the early supporters of Equity fellows. And it aligned with really supporting community leaders, so we selected specific communities where folks of color were not having access to personalized learning, and is focused on civic education. Which I think is, so desperately, needed, right now.
And recognizing that the solutions, in some of these communities, because of their size of the community, doesn’t have to, squarely, fall on the shoulders of the school districts. So we have a representative, a senior leader from that school district, along with a number of community members. So we have city council members as part of specific Ashe teams. We have school board members. We have folks from the mayor’s office, in different communities. And I want to acknowledge that those communities are Baltimore, Maryland, Jackson, Mississippi, Oakland, California, Akron, Ohio, and Cleveland, Ohio. And there’s some amazing folks, and if you know anything about any of those communities, there’s so much great potential, and brilliance that exists, there.
And, then, you didn’t ask this, but Leadership Journeys is a big one, right?

Elliot Washor:
Yes.

Carlos Moreno:
Which we’re going to be doing tomorrow night. Big plug. If you’ve been to Leadership Journeys, make some noise.
It’s going to be real special because it is a homecoming. I can, honestly, say I have not been this excited about a Leadership Journeys because of the featured leaders and the love that I have for them, and I’m like… It is just going to be different.

Elliot Washor:
If you’re going to be on the stage, tomorrow, stand up.

Carlos Moreno:
Our own, Michelle Pledger, is-

Elliot Washor:
There, you go.

Carlos Moreno:
… going to be one of the featured leaders, also.

Elliot Washor:
All right.

Carlos Moreno:
So if you had other plans… No shade to the other great events that are happening, but I think you may want to think about your options.

Elliot Washor:
Get there early.

Carlos Moreno:
Yeah, yeah, true. So Leadership Journeys is an opportunity to have leaders that, I believe, kind of exemplify what Leadership Soul is, and how they show up, and they’re sharing about their journeys in the way that I think I did in Finding Your Leadership Soul. They’re talking about their learning in really profound ways, and they’re just walking the walk. In that truth.
And the hope is that folks see that, and experience these stories. And, for some folks, some of it is going to resonate, and they’re going to be like, “Yeah, this is…”, and some of it won’t. Some is very unique to each individual leader that shares, just deeply, and profoundly. And there’s celebration in all of that, right? There’s music, there’s dancing. I was able to finagle with our friends to get a little wine in there, right? So we have some wine.

Elliot Washor:
There wasn’t going to be wine?

Carlos Moreno:
No, we’re not going to talk about that. We’re good. We’re good. We’re good. We’re good. Of course.

Elliot Washor:
What?

Carlos Moreno:
It’s a school, El. It’s a school. It’s a school. We got to figure that out.

Elliot Washor:
Okay, sorry.

Carlos Moreno:
It’s a school, don’t forget.
So no, it’s a celebration of leadership. It’s a celebration of courage. It’s a celebration of truth, and honesty. And I couldn’t be more excited about the leaders for tomorrow. Yeah, it’s going to be beautiful.

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
Thank God.

Elliot Washor:
These are a “we”, Ashe and Equity Fellows and Leadership Journeys, but they emanate from people who come together, and self-organize, and put it all together. And it is a tribute to Los about the work that he continues to do as a craft, and put these pieces that are so necessary forward. So thank you, thank you, thank you-

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
Let’s give Elliot-

Elliot Washor:
I’ll receive. I’ll receive. I’ll receive-

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
… and Carlos some love, right now.
Okay. So, now, we’ve reached the portion where you’re no longer eavesdropping, you’re here. You’re alive, and visible, and I know you have questions. So go ahead, and raise your hand, if you have a question, and I’ll come over with the microphone, and you’ll just speak, directly, into the mic. We’re going to start with the lovely Nicky Hanostro.

Nicky Hanostro:
Thanks so much-

Elliot Washor:
What’s up, Nicky?

Nicky Hanostro:
… for the discussion. Hey, Los. I’m happy to be here. I want to know a little bit about what a current struggle is that you’re in, and how you’re leaning on your Leadership Soul to kind of work through.

Carlos Moreno:
That’s a great question. There’s never a shortage of struggles. I think the pause is figuring out which one to share. You know what I mean? I think we know who we are as an organization, and what our values are, and we, also, know what’s happening in the world around us. And one of the things which is, fortunately, not just on my shoulders, but our collective shoulders, is we’ve, historically, been pretty proud about being the type of organization that takes a stand, right? We’re like, “Here’s our statement. Take it, or leave it.”
And we’re faced, now, with the reality that we need to be slightly more careful when we do certain things, because of the impact in our ability to stay… Quite honestly, to be able to remain in it, for the long haul. And that’s really hard. That’s really hard, and as a leader of the organization, right? As a leader within the organization, it’s hard when you really want to put something out, and you want to support your team, and, then, be like, “I don’t think we need to do that right at this moment, because it could really have a catastrophic impact on us.”
And I’m thankful for the push that I get, and the challenge that I get from my colleagues, all the time, around doing that. It is like that tension that is, always, there. It’s there. It’s, always, kind of existed, but, right now, I feel it different. I feel it real different. And what I need to do is, I think… What I try to do is remind myself what I’m grounded in, and why I’m making a decision that sometimes may not be the most popular one. That it’s in the betterment of the broader organization, and our ability to stay there, right? And be here, and stay relevant. And different ways to pick, and choose your fights. When to put out a statement, when not. What are the other things that we can do?
That’s a real one, right now. And I say that with a lot of my colleagues in the room. Right?

Elliot Washor:
Mm-hm.

Carlos Moreno:
I know they’re, probably, like, “Yep. What you going to do, bro?”

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
All right. Who else has a question?

Speaker 6:
Hello. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and the great conversation. Full admission, I have not read your book, but I plan to. But I’m sensing some themes, already, from our speakers at the conference, and, so far, one of them seems to be vulnerability. So, as someone, myself, who’s trying to work to be more vulnerable in my daily interactions with individuals, what advice might you give me, or others that are trying to do this work, and be vulnerable, in those spaces, at those certain times? Given your experience, and the way you wrote your book.

Carlos Moreno:
I am going to riff a little bit. So I’d say, “Don’t force it.” Forced vulnerability is just performative, right? So there are these moments where, just, it’ll feel natural. It’ll feel right. It’ll feel appropriate, depending on who you’re sharing with. I think one of the things about vulnerability, it’s more than just an action. It is a way of just being, and showing up. And what I’ve cautioned to folks, in the past, is, just, sometimes when you’re vulnerable, and share, and if you’re not careful, you can, actually, do more harm than good.
So the essence of why it is that you’re choosing to share something, to connect with someone, to affirm someone, something that someone shared, that, perhaps, you want to kind of step out, and you have a connection to, or with, or you’re trying to build a connection with. And, also, just again, take your time with it, right? It’s not like coming out, and just sharing all of your challenges, all of your struggles, all at once. That’s a lot. If you came to me, and I try to show up in really empathetic ways, I’d be like, “Bro, that’s a lot. That’s a lot. Who are you talking with?”
So yeah, I think just being thoughtful, and just kind of going slowly. Do you want to add to that, at all, El?

Elliot Washor:
Well, I’ll just be brief, just because I’m never brief… But I’ll just say that, when you talk about time, we really got that wrong time, and everything, and, I would say, acceleration is a trend, not a law. And using a story that I was told, if you go too fast, sometimes, you got to wait for your soul to catch up with you. So I’ll stop, there.

Carlos Moreno:
Who quoted… Who said that? We need to quote that. We need to quote that, bro. Can you repeat that, though?

Elliot Washor:
I don’t know. If you go too fast, sometimes, you have to wait for your soul to catch up to you.

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
Yeah.

Carlos Moreno:
Eric, you got that? Okay, cool.

Speaker 7:
No problem.

Carlos Moreno:
Thank you. I’ll get it from you, later, bro.

Alcine:
I haven’t read the book, yet, either, but I plan to. Probably, tonight. My question is in regards to advising, and your connectedness, can you talk about what you did during those hard times? You talked about three deaths. How’d you make it through those moments? What are some of your self-cares, and your connectedness, and the things that you did to weather through that?

Carlos Moreno:
Yeah, I appreciate that question. I’ll start off with the really short, and truthful response is I didn’t. I just kept going. And that’s Josue, right? So I can, actually, add, so y’all can see who they were. That’s Andy, and that’s Sean.
So with Josue, and Sean, they were both in my advisory, and they passed after they graduated. So they passed as young adults, in very different ways, and complete shock, were a complete surprise. And where I, actually, found support, for myself, was with those folks. Because we were grieving together. We had shared this experience together. And, again, I did not… One of the main reasons that Elliot mentioned this book has taken a very long time is because, as I started writing it, and writing these letters, it started unearthing things. And I was like, “oh, I’m not well. I’m like a hot mess. I’m not okay.” And I really needed to pause, because, then, I found myself not being able to move forward, feeling a lot of guilt, and regret. It was really challenging.
And, then, Andy, I was his principal, and there’s a different story with Andy that I won’t get into, right now. But it was really difficult, because I felt like I made a really big mistake with Andy. That if I hadn’t made the mistake, I still continue to tell myself, to this day, that, maybe, the outcome would’ve been slightly different with him. But what we heard, really loud, and clear, from the stage, today, is the importance of healing, and taking care of yourself in therapy. That is me. Right?
And I do know that many black, and brown men don’t do it, but it has helped me tremendously. In this, and other things, right? Just in general maintenance which is really important for us to be well. Especially, when we’re talking about working with young people. We got to take care of ourselves. But the truth, sister, it happened? I was just thinking about the community, thinking about the young people, showing up for the families, and, then, moving on to the next one. And that wasn’t helpful.

Elliot Washor:
Very good.

Carlos Moreno:
Let’s go back to this.

Speaker 9:
You have us tearing up, back here, a little bit. We were sharing how we’ve lost students, too, and it’s hard.

Carlos Moreno:
Absolutely.

Alcine:
So my question is about the healing part. What have been some lily pads, or stepping stones that you have taken, maybe, more than therapy? But if not, that’s okay, too… That has helped you to do your healing? Because I heard you when you said that we have to be healed, or on our own healing journey to work with these precious babies that we get to, so curious what you would say, what wisdom you would offer us.

Carlos Moreno:
I don’t know how much of it would be wisdom, Alcine, but…

Alcine:
Tequila works, too.

Carlos Moreno:
Yeah, you, already… We’ve known each other for a long time. Casamigos. No, no, no, no. Not always. Not always.
Those of you that have known me for quite some time, I’ve been on a health journey, right? So making sure I take care of myself, and being well. Not just mentally, but, also, physically, and I had a lot of support from my family, but, also, my colleagues, in that journey. It’s beautiful, because Carla, when we travel together, all the time, will be like, “Los, we’re going to the gym?” I’m like, “Yeah, man. Let’s go to the gym.” We work out together. We celebrate together. We find joy.
And, also, pacing, I feel like I’ve gotten much better at pacing myself than I used to. And I know that so many of us because we care so deeply about the work, and we’re working, tirelessly, in hours, and it’s… Sometimes, I don’t, necessarily, model it well for my colleagues, but the importance of being able to break, and step away from it. I’m a lot more intentional about… Like when I say I’m really taking time off, trying to take that time.
Surrounding myself with folks… I promise y’all. I know Dina for a long time, but not surrounding yourself with toxicity. That is… She said it, and I was like, “That is draining. That is so draining.” Right? And just being mindful, and protect your heart, protect your soul, again in the service of you just being well, but so that you could do your very best for other people. Those have been, I think, some of the key things. And, again, Casamigos, every now, and then. That’s very real.

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
We have time for one last question, before Carlos gives his final remarks.

Speaker 10:
So I haven’t read the book, yet, but I do plan to read it.

Carlos Moreno:
What’s up, sister? I see you.

Speaker 10:
The question that I have, as a leader on a journey of founding, and doing this work, one of the things that I am wondering about is how you… This is not, necessarily, like a self-care question, but this is more so about, you mentioned an experience where “I sat at the table. I had this opportunity.”, and, basically, you knew what you were getting ready to do was the right thing. And, then, you experienced that, I would say, loss in that potential profession, just for what you were experiencing, right then? Like you were about to make this move, and, then, you lost that experience, so to speak. You had to regroup. Talk to me about how you’ve regrouped over your leadership journey, and how that has developed your Leadership Soul, or how you’re taking care of your Leadership Soul, while you’re doing all of that regrouping. And I’m sorry for the question being wordy.

Carlos Moreno:
No, no, no. All good. I’m going to repeat part of it, just because I want to make sure I’m capturing it right. So would you like to know, specifically, to the example I gave, earlier, around…

Speaker 10:
Sure. I think, just to be vulnerable, a little bit, just around, you’ve done very daunting work, and thinking about how you did that work, amidst all of the things, and how you continued to ascend, how you were able to take care of your Leadership Soul to keep going, even now, to do the work.

Carlos Moreno:
Yeah, I talk about it a little bit. I appreciate the question, because I feel it’s an appropriate timed question, as well, in where we are in the conversation. I talk a lot about, at the end of the book, around what I think folks should continue to do to preserve, and sustain themselves, moving forward. So, first is just… I think what I list is the importance of being able to continue to grow, and opportunities to continue to grow, and expand your knowledge, and your learning in ways that feels fulfilling, and fruitful to you.
I think that’s just important. We can find ourselves kind of stagnant and just kind of like, “Ugh.”, right? But really trying to… And that takes time and work. Connected to the next nugget would be it’s, just finding those trusted circles and places where folks are going to support you, but, also, challenge you in really healthy ways, and challenge you to be your very best. That love you and care about you enough to do that. Sometimes, that’s within your organization, sometimes, it’s not, and it’s not that it’s okay, but it’s just the reality of what it is, finding those circles that fill you up.
I think it’s important to… Even, just in spite of what happens, sometimes, it’s important to be able to love with abandon, and let some of it go, and hold truth that in, almost, most cases, that folks, absolutely…
I’m about to say something that’s not actually true. What I was going to say is I need to believe. Carlos needs to believe that people, innately, want to do good. They don’t want to cause harm. But I know that people have been hurt, right? And there are some assholes. Right? Like real talk, there’s some assholes, right? And we can, often, tell who those folks are, pretty quickly. But it’s something that I need to be able to do, to have belief in humanity and people. And I am going to give you five minutes, and we’re going to be here, and if the vibe isn’t right. I’m going to wish you the very best, and, then, I’m going to keep it moving.

Elliot Washor:
See you.

Carlos Moreno:
And I think that’s okay. But there’s, definitely, some of that in the book, so yeah, I appreciate that.

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
Now, we want to give both of you a few minutes each to just share any final parting words that you would like to impart on this audience, and you can decide who goes first.

Carlos Moreno:
You go first.

Elliot Washor:
Want me to go first?

Carlos Moreno:
Yeah.

Elliot Washor:
So, in the book, there’s a quote from my son who passed who, also, went to the Met, and seeing it in writing… And because that’s who he was, the quote is “Give love, first.”, and he said that since he was a little child. But seeing it in writing, from somebody else who caught him his phrase, and knew him quite well, made me feel very, very different. Really, really different. So, seeing it in the book, so I really thank you for that.

Carlos Moreno:
Of course.

Elliot Washor:
It’s a big deal.

Carlos Moreno:
Mike was a beautiful soul. He, and I had an interesting bond. He had graduated before I started teaching at the Met, but he was, always, around, because he was Elliot’s son, which was cool. But he was… Y’all imagine like a younger Elliot. That’s who he was. A talented musician.

Elliot Washor:
Very.

Carlos Moreno:
Phenomenal musician, and when Elliot had shared that quote… It’s the opening to the… It’s one of the two quotes to open the chapter on Love with Josue.

Elliot Washor:
It’s written on his tombstone-

Carlos Moreno:
Yeah.

Elliot Washor:
… so it’s really…

Carlos Moreno:
Yeah.
And one of the things that as we… Again, there are a lot of beautiful memories of those young people. So as folks pick it up, it’s like, “Hey, it’s an opportunity for me to…” It was an opportunity for me to say some things to some of the young men’s family members about all the things I appreciated, all the beauty that they brought to this world, and who they were. And, then, kind of talk more about some of the humorous moments that we had. Usually, at my expense.
And at the end of the book, there were two final letters that I wrote, that were to two young people that I believe just exemplify what’s possible, and the future generations of this world. And folks that often will be like, “Oh, they’re up next.”? They’re, actually, here, now. They’re showing up. We see it all the time. And one is to this young man, Michael Walters, who is a graduate of our school in the Bronx, Fannie Lou Hamer Freedom High School. Oh, BX, stand up. Let’s go.
A beautiful soul.

Elliot Washor:
That’s right.

Carlos Moreno:
He has a really powerful story, which I was really honored that he gave me permission to share, and he’s off doing tremendous things. Entrepreneur, super talented, and he just fills me with tremendous hope.
And, then, the last person was this soul. This is my baby girl.

Elliot Washor:
Yeah. Right.

Carlos Moreno:
Isabella. And what I wanted to do, and if I can, for the final piece, is read Bella’s letter. And I’ll say that when the publishers were like, “Hey, we’re going to do the letters in script.”, I thought it was the coolest thing, but it’s not really easy to read. So please bear with me a little bit because I’m like… And I’ve read it a few times, but, every time, it’s super challenging. it’s just so small.

Elliot Washor:
I know.

Carlos Moreno:
I know, and I got readers, too. That’s crazy, and I’m like, “I’m not pulling out the readers. I’m not pulling out the readers.” All right. Focus for a minute. Okay.
“To Isabella Moreno.
Bella, I’m up before dawn, gazing at the fading stars, and thoughts of you prompted me to write this letter. I cherish the opportunity to reflect on where I am on my journey as a leader, and as the father of the most amazing…” or “Inspiring…” That’s inspiring. “… Human I’ve ever met. I can think of no better way to conclude my most important piece of writing.
These last few years of the pandemic proved to be [foreign language 00:54:26], crazy, and the last few months have been, especially, difficult and challenging. I know that spending some of your high school years in quarantine, and hybrid learning is not what you had hoped for or expected. Being quarantined for so long, completely, changed the way I think about time.”
Damn, that’s really small.
“I, often, lost track of what day, or, even, week it was. But I’m, eternally, grateful for, and appreciative of how much more time we had to spend together.
Tonight, I find myself thinking about the future, your future. I have this image of you preparing to leave home for college, off to Duke to join the rowing team. Mommy, and I are so very proud, and happy. Although I’m nervous about you leaving, I know that you are ready. You’ll be fine. In fact, you’ll be better than fine.
You are brilliant, kind, compassionate, and just. You received an education that focused on learning, and not just test scores, from a public school with resources for everything you needed. From a rigorous, and engaging curriculum to black, and brown teachers who represented the diversity of your community. You are a reflection of what our country can be, and what it needs.
You are a natural leader and protector of those who need the greatest protection. The world would be a better place because of you. I am reminded of young women like you, women such as [spelling 00:55:57] Mileyla Yousvazi, Amanda Gorman, and Greta Thunberg, who have demonstrated that young people can make a difference. You are everything that we need.
Did I ever share with you that some people wanted us to name you Milagros, instead of Isabella? Milagros is Spanish for miracle. You entered this world, four months early, weighing less than two pounds. But miracle would refer only to your birth, and not your life. You are a fighter. You have, always, been strong in every way. You possess intelligence, beauty, and compassion. Isabella means beautiful, and you inherit the empathy, and strength that Grandma Isabelle, your namesake, carried until the age of 98. I pray your life is as long, and as rich as hers was.
The real miracle was the relentless love, patience, and compassion, consistently, demonstrated by the nursing staff at Women and Infants Hospital in Providence. The care, and attention they showed you, me, and mommy was truly miraculous. They stayed alongside us on rough nights, when your oxygen levels were dangerously low, and celebrated your growth, and progress. They modeled the ethos of patients, encouragement, vulnerability, and love that we needed to see, and feel as new parents. We learned to be better parents because of them.
I think of the nursing staff, often, as a dad, but, even more, as an educator. All that they did for us when our family was most vulnerable influenced the way I try to show up inside classrooms, and schools. I try to carry this ethos in all my work.
I could not have been prouder to see you take to the streets of our town in May 2020, wearing a mask, to express your outrage at George Floyd’s murder, and to exclaim, with pain-filled passion, that Black Lives matter. It was one of my proudest moments, watching you lead thousands of young people, and adults in a march for some of our most basic human rights. You have known from a young age that freedom is never voluntarily given to the oppressor. It must be demanded by the oppressed. Martin Luther King Jr’s inspirational words ring out, through your actions.
Bella, you’ve seen how I’ve struggled, looking back at my relationship with the young men profiled in the book. You’re my child, but they were, also, part of my family. From them. I learned lessons filled with pain, and hurt that I pray that you won’t have to experience. You can lead differently, and better. You can be more loving, caring, and vulnerable. You can, and must make a difference. I know you will be a leader with soul. In many ways, you, already, are.
A leader I know, recently, shared with me, “Love slows us down to observe more carefully, and create new ways of being with one another.” This is a kind of love many marginalized youth never experience. Still, there is no single movement in the history of this world that did not have young people at its forefront. Bring others to this quest for leadership soul. Practice, and model love, care, and vulnerability.
The system needs champions who provide love, and care for individuals, and groups on the margins. I’m confident that you and your peers can turn the tide for the new generation of leaders with soul. As I observe the state of our democracy, it is clear to me that we need new, and better ways, going forward. Major institutions are failing due to a lack of leadership, resources, and honesty.
This is what keeps me up at night. [foreign language 00:59:50]. We adults have work to do. Far too much of current leadership is rooted in intellect, and selfishness, not soul. To overcome this state of affairs, leaders, including mothers, and fathers, and non-binary families must focus on love, care, and vulnerability. I’m committed to doing my part, but, again, eventually, we have to get out of the way, pass the reins and let the soul of the youth take the lead. The world needs you to fully realize the beautiful, and amazing change maker that you are destined to be.
I will end, for now, baby girl. The sun is beginning to rise, and it’s a new day.
Love you,
Dad.

Michelle Sadrena Pledger:
Thank you so much, Carlos and Elliot, for just sharing just glimpses of your Leadership Soul. Trust me, read the book, for those of you who haven’t read it. I can’t believe they didn’t sell it. I was like, “People would’ve paid for it.”, but they are gifting it to you, so, please, read it, and share it, widely. And let’s give one more round of applause for our incredible Den speakers.

Alec Patton:
High Tech High Unboxed is hosted, and edited by me, Alec Patton. Our theme music is by Brother Herschel.
Huge thanks to Carlos Moreno, Elliot Washor, and Dr. Michelle Sadrina Pledger for this Den Talk. In the show notes, you can find a link to Carlos’s book, Finding Your Leadership Soul, as well as more information about the Deeper Learning Conference.
Thanks for listening.