ALEC PATTON: Where did you see yourself in relation to what you were learning academically in school? Did you see yourself in it?

CHIKLE: Oh, hell no, man. Are you kidding me?

[MUSIC PLAYING]

ALEC PATTON: This is High Tech High Unboxed. I’m Alec Patton.

JEAN CATUBAY: And I’m Jean Catubay. I teach seventh grade humanities at High Tech Middle School Chula Vista.

ALEC PATTON: And we’ll let today’s guest introduce himself.

CHIKLE: My name is Enrique Lugo. I am also known as Chikle. That is my artist name. I am a father of two young human beings, a 11-year-old boy, and a nine-year-old young lady. I was born and raised in Paradise Hills, which is in the southeast region of San Diego. It’s a small, working-class community. And over the past four years, we’ve been doing a lot of work with community cleanups and entrepreneurial endeavors, where we opened a coffee shop, and then, in the middle of the pandemic that we’re in, we had to close the doors but now are working to reinvent that space and create something new there.

ALEC PATTON: Chikle is also one of the owners of La Golondrina, a shop in San Diego’s Barrio Logan where local artists sell their work. And he sells his own work online.

CHIKLE: I have a Big Cartel shop, chikle79.bigcartel.com.

ALEC PATTON: And, lest we forget, he co-hosts a couple of podcasts of his own.

CHIKLE: I participate in one that has been going for two years, and I kind of joined it and then was on there regularly, which is called the Emo Brown Podcast. And then, I also participate in one that’s called Dale Gas Confidentials. Dale Gas is a saying, kind of slang, for, kind of like, go for it. It’s with a radio DJ, Beto Perez, and then a elementary school counselor who is from Logan Heights. He was part of the gang and then, through education, kind of changed.

ALEC PATTON: So Chikle’s got a lot going on. He’s also just built himself a screen printing studio in his backyard. Oh, yeah, and there’s one other thing he does.

CHIKLE: I have been a part of High Tech High for about eight years as a classroom teacher and then transitioned into administration as a dean of students, assistant principal. And I just completed one year of that and about to embark on my second.

ALEC PATTON: We talked to Chikle about how he got to where he is today, about how he’s navigated white spaces since he was a kid– and what a white space is in the first place– and about what it’s been like to go from being an art teacher to being in charge of discipline for an entire school, especially right now. Let’s get into it.

Where’d you go to school?

CHIKLE: I actually got bused out of the neighborhood for school. That was a magnet program for bilingual education. And since junior high, I went to school up in Point Loma. I went to Correia Junior High and then Point Loma High School.

ALEC PATTON: And so was that English-Spanish?

CHIKLE: Yeah. It was really cool because as a native Spanish speaker– that was my first language– school was a little bit easier for me because classes were in Spanish.

ALEC PATTON: And so, at home, you were mostly speaking Spanish?

CHIKLE: Yeah. I mean, to this day, when we go over and visit my mom and dad, it’s all Spanish all the time. And at home, I don’t speak Spanish with my own kids as much as I should, till my mom’s always giving me a hard time about that.

JEAN CATUBAY: Why do you think you should?

CHIKLE: Because I have a lot of family that doesn’t speak English. And there’s going to be a point where my kids can’t communicate with their own family anymore, and that’s important to me. And living on the border, it’s just a different experience when you can communicate with almost everyone.

ALEC PATTON: So you’re getting bused out to this school. So was that weird, going to school in Point Loma?

CHIKLE: I didn’t really think anything of it at the time. So my sister’s 10 years older than me, and she had done it. So I think part of me was like, all right, cool– I guess what we do. And then, because of the magnet program, there was a good dozen of us from the same school.

We had been in classes together since first grade, some of us going back to kindergarten. So there was a big group of us that would get on the bus. We were the first stop, and we’d all get on at the same time. I think that helped. I wasn’t on my own, or I wasn’t trying to find new friends. I already came with kids that I had grown up.

And actually, it’s interesting because not until more recently have I really thought about that experience and how it set me up for a more positive experience in college and just life after high school. Because I got to know kids from different ethnicities, not just Latino or Filipino or Black. I was meeting kids who were Portuguese. I was meeting kids who were wealthy. And I didn’t think much of it. But I was introduced to different genres of music, and I think that’s something that I value so much now.

ALEC PATTON: Where did you see yourself in relation to what you were learning academically in school? Did you see yourself in it? Or did you feel like you were learning about–

CHIKLE: Oh, hell no, man. Are you kidding me? The most memorable lesson at the time was we dissected a cat. So I learned anatomy. I’ll be honest, I don’t think I ever learned anything that made me feel like, oh, shit, I see myself, you know? I think what helped me out in high school was that we had a screen printing class. So from sophomore year through senior year, I was always in there.

I was never really academic. I think I always did well in school, or well enough to be out of trouble and had a good GPA. But I was all about art, graffiti, and soccer. That’s where I saw myself. I saw myself in my friends, in the music we were listening to, going to concerts in Tijuana, getting into the mosh pit. I never really thought about the future or my education.

JEAN CATUBAY: So why college, then?

CHIKLE: College because my sister went to college. So my sister, she was also bused out. She went to Point Loma.

JEAN CATUBAY: The one who’s 10 years older, you were saying, right?

CHIKLE: Yeah, and she actually had a counselor who noticed her. My sister was going to go to fashion school. And I remember we went and took a tour in downtown San Diego. I saw a room full of sewing machines. That’s what she was going to do. And then, when her counselor found out, she’s like, no way. Because my sister, she is the academic in our family.

So she had a really high GPA. And so this counselor takes her to USD. The application deadline has already passed. My sister’s not only admitted, but she’s offered a full ride. And from that point on, my parents would always tell me, if your sister could do it without any help, you have to do it. And then that became my sister’s kind of message to me, too, of you gotta do it, you gotta do it.

And again, soccer, art, that was my thing. I wasn’t really thinking college, but my sister kept pushing me. And being a rebellious teenager, I started looking at schools that had good soccer programs. Because I was pretty good at the time– I wouldn’t say good enough to go to the next level, but I got into Cal Poly, which, at the time, was in the top 25 of the nation.

And so I went out there. I tried out, made it to the final cut, was invited to come back in the spring. But I didn’t go any further than that. So college was because my mom and sister told me I had to, and it was also a ticket away from home. That way, I would be OK with my parents.

JEAN CATUBAY: It sounds like you had some strong women in your life, huh?

CHIKLE: Yes, absolutely. And my sister, still, she’s like a second mom to me.

JEAN CATUBAY: It’s that eldest daughter of immigrant parents trope, for sure.

CHIKLE: Right? Yeah. You know, and my mom will tell me stories of when I was of age to go to preschool that my sister found out where there was a preschool that she could take me to. She already had that spirit of we need education, even though she wasn’t seeing herself in college. And I’ll tell you, my grandmother, when my sister told them she was going to go to college, my grandma told her, like, what do you mean? That’s not the place for you. You need to learn how to cook and clean.

And so, our family still has a lot of those old-school values. Luckily, my parents didn’t, and they encouraged my sister to go and myself to go. So definitely blessed to have a sister that had that counselor. That counselor’s the one that changed it for us. Because who knows? If my sister had gone to fashion school, who knows what the expectation would have been for me.

JEAN CATUBAY: That’s kind of amazing that you can pin it to one moment, right?

CHIKLE: Right? Yeah.

JEAN CATUBAY: That’s kind of where it pivoted. I feel like that’s a lot of things when you really think about it, when you take the time to really sort through.

CHIKLE: Absolutely. Yeah, and thinking about public education, Point Loma, even back then, was one of the bigger schools in San Diego. So for someone to notice a student like my sister, that, in and of itself, is already magical, and that that person would then take the time to drive my sister in-person, get her to do all this stuff– not only life-changing but for generations.

The impact that that has had on our family is tremendous because my sister was the first in our family on both sides to do it. And then even family friends that we grew up with saw her as the role model. And now a lot of us ended up in college, and even now, the younger generations are starting to pursue education. It’s pretty neat that she was kind of the catalyst for all of that.

JEAN CATUBAY: We need to drop your sister’s name. What is her name?

CHIKLE: Yeah, so her original name is Veronica Lugo [INAUDIBLE], but now her married name is Veronica McKnight. And now, just to brag a little bit more about her, so she graduated with honors, high school, and then graduated with honors from USD, as well. So again, she’s always had that spirit.

And I’m just really proud of her and, now, grateful that she did all of that because of where I get to sit. I’m a freaking dean of students at High Tech High International, the last place, if we interviewed my 17-year-old self, there’s absolutely no way that would be what I would be doing at 41.

ALEC PATTON: So Chikle’s sister paved the way for him to get into college. But getting into college is one thing. Fitting into college is a whole other thing. And the school where Chikle went– Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo– was a culture shock.

CHIKLE: I think San Diego is pretty conservative, but it’s not as visible as when you hit a small community like San Luis Obispo. And it’s the college town and then the folks who live there. And it’s a big agriculture school, so you have a lot of hard core conservative folks from out in the farms and ranches.

And I was meeting people that were saying, like, I’ve never seen a black person in person. This my first time. We’re like, what? Where’d you come from? And then you realize the whole world is not San Diego. Some folks live in very unique environments. At the time, I couldn’t even imagine. I thought that was the wildest thing anyone could ever say.

ALEC PATTON: But Chikle’s time at Point Loma High School had given him a secret weapon– punk rock.

CHIKLE: When I first arrived at Cal Poly, music was a way that I connected with people that I probably wouldn’t have connected with otherwise.

JEAN CATUBAY: What was some of that music that you were introduced to? I’m curious.

CHIKLE: So I grew up in the ’90s. So in Point Loma, a lot of those kids were listening to bands like Pennywise and Unwritten Law and Sublime, No Effects, which, at the time, they were all kind of coming up. In junior high, Stone Temple Pilots and Pearl Jam. They were playing in San Diego all the time, and this was before they were really big. And kids would come into school talking about these bands, and I was like, who is that? I’ve never heard that.

Because out here, in Paradise Hills, we were mostly listening to West Coast gangster rap and, for me, growing up with a Mexican family, traditional Mexican music– norteño, rancheras, all the classics– and then oldies. And then, I went to Point Loma, and all of a sudden, I had a variety of music.

And then, once I got into that, I remember my senior year in high school, two of my friends started sharing CDs like Pink Floyd and older punk and Jeff Beck– artists that I would have never heard, probably, until much later. But then, arriving at Cal Poly, suddenly, were talking about it. I knew what they were talking about, and I was into it. So it created a lot of cool experiences.

ALEC PATTON: So it kind of sounds like you got an early crash course in whiteness studies, a little bit.

CHIKLE: [LAUGHING]

It’s almost like I knew enough to survive, although I didn’t realize that. And I think it’s interesting because I was in San Luis Obispo as an 18-year-old wearing Dickies and Chucks and had a shaved head. And so I looked a certain way that I think is– it’s kind of embarrassing to share that because I think, in many ways, I was tokenized.

I was that kid who made it, you know? But then, I started to see some of the ugly sides of our society as I started to grow up and evolve within my major and meeting with my advisor. There’s comments that people make that kind of let you know where people stand in terms of who you are and your identity.

ALEC PATTON: Like what?

CHIKLE: So in my major, we were all assigned a staff advisor, a person who was supposed to support you and guide you and help you when you have questions.

ALEC PATTON: Yeah, and what were you majoring in?

CHIKLE: My major was graphic communication, so everything that has to do with printing– the step after graphic design. So I got a little bit of graphic design, and then I learned everything about printing presses and paper and inks. This advisor, though, my freshman year, I was seeing how other majors had almost a sequence of your first quarter, you should take these courses. Your second quarter, you should take these, like a little roadmap.

And for us, we had this really– to me, at the time, it was a really complicated chart that had bubbles all over the sheet and then arrows pointing in different directions. So it was like a pick your own adventure, but there was no clear “follow this course.” So I went in and asked, hey, you know, I might need some help picking my classes for next semester. He said, well, don’t come back until you have a plan.

I was like, wait, what? That’s what I’m here for. And more conversations, it turned into, you know, one day, Enrique, you’re just going to be another taxpayer. So it is what it is. And I was like, man, who is this man, and why is he treating me this way? Because I had other friends that would go to him, and they’d get advice.

JEAN CATUBAY: Were your other friends white?

CHIKLE: Of course. I mean, I don’t know what the makeup is now of Cal Poly, but in my major, there was three Latinos at the time, out of a couple hundred. And in the school, it definitely felt like there was 50 of us, the people that looked like me, at least, or had a similar background. And I didn’t think much of it, other than this guy’s a bad word. Can I say bad words on here?

ALEC PATTON: Yeah, you can say bad words. Go for it.

CHIKLE: OK, cool. I’m not going to. I just want to make sure. But you know, I think that was the first time I felt like an outsider. And it was fine because, I think, again, going back to music, I had created enough relationships around me that helped me move forward and ultimately graduate and get out of there but always tapping into the working class roots and working in the cafeteria in the dishwasher area.

And to me, those jobs were fun, which is funny. Because when I suggest that to our students now who are graduating, they’re like, no way, I could never do that. I was like, oh, but those are the best jobs. You can meet real people there. I don’t know. I had a good time.

ALEC PATTON: Next, Chikle moved back to San Diego.

CHIKLE: When I graduated college, I did AmeriCorps VISTA for two years, so a full-time volunteer. I was working at the Barrio Logan College Institute, which is an after-school program for youth from the Logan Heights area. And that’s where I kind of got curious about education, and that’s where I first heard about High Tech High. It was, like, in 2003, in 2004.

But then, I met my wife, and I started working in a small print shop here in town. And then it would be another 10 years before I actually started pursuing jobs in education or working with youth. Because when Barrio Logan started to become an art, kind of, hub and they started to change, we did a program called School of Guerilla Arts where we would teach kids how to DJ, how to do stencil art, how to screen print.

And that was the first time that I shared screen printing with kids. And to see the excitement in their faces when they would pull the squeegee and see that, somehow, there was ink on a sticker, and it was theirs to keep, and how exciting that was, I was like, dang, I want to do this. So I started to look for jobs with youth and then with after-school programs. And that’s when I got invited to do screen printing with a ninth grade class.

And that’s really what got me the job as academic coach was I did something with a kid that folks had been struggling with. And the kid and I connected, you know, the kid who stuck around to the end and helped me carry all my stuff out to the car. And it was really cool. And I didn’t think anything of it, but that opened the door, and I saw the listing for academic coach at High Tech High. I did that for a semester and then ended up in Chula Vista as an art teacher.

JEAN CATUBAY: I’m wondering how that experience was for you. Because we were academic coaches at different times, essentially, in a different High Tech High. So I’m wondering how that was for you.

CHIKLE: Yeah. I had an amazing experience. I’ll be honest, when I came in, I didn’t realize I’d be working with students that had specific needs and different profiles. I thought academic coach, like a mentor, like a guide. And then, when I came in and I was interviewed, and they’re like, you need to help with math and chemistry, I was like, what? And I told them, I don’t think I’m the guy for this. Like, no, no, no. You’re going to be great. Don’t worry about it. You’ll learn with them. And sure enough, I did.

But I think academic coaches make a lot of High Tech High work. They’re the ones who are able to get those kids who are being integrated to actually integrate and participate and be successful. And so, for me, that was really exciting. Because I was a little older already. I think my mentality and perspective on life was very different from when I was working at the after-school program when I was 22 or 23. I was now a father. I was 30 years old.

And to me, being able to connect with the kids that I worked with and to talk to them about their future and why things were important, it just seemed so rewarding, even though academic coaches don’t make a whole lot of money, there’s no benefits, you’re doing all the heavy lifting, and the reward is in the connections that you make with the students. But I think, for me, because I never saw education as part of my future, I think I had so much more to learn about being an educator.

And as an academic coach, I was successful, but I wasn’t lesson planning. I wasn’t doing all these things that I struggled with in my first couple of years. But I knew how to set things up for all kids to be successful. I should say I had a better idea of how to do that.

Because I feel like when you come in fresh and suddenly, you’re not only designing a project but you’re designing your lesson plans and your day to day and you’ve got to scaffold it for four different profiles in your class, that’s really hard. And I think I came in already with a little bit of a know-how or how to approach it.

JEAN CATUBAY: And I always talk about that I just miss being able to be like, hey, you look like you’re having a rough day today. Do you want to go take a walk right now? When you’re the general ed teacher, you can’t do that. And on those walks, on those brain breaks, walking out and just having a minute– because especially in Chula Vista, it’s such a beautiful campus.

CHIKLE: Oh, yeah.

JEAN CATUBAY: So I utilized that, like in the back, where they have all the flowers that bloom in January and March.

CHIKLE: Yes, it’s beautiful.

JEAN CATUBAY: That would be my kick-it spot with the kids. Like, yo, let’s go. And I miss that.

CHIKLE: Which school were you at?

JEAN CATUBAY: At Chula Vista, at the middle school.

CHIKLE: Oh, cool. Yeah, like you said, there’s just so many opportunities to connect and get to know them. And I feel like probably the most valuable piece is just listening to them. And I do miss that. Because even now, in my role now, is so different and so much harder to connect with kids for me now, as a dean of students, and, I think, in large part because of the title. And then, I moved to a new school, so I’m also kind of just establishing myself and building a relationship with the whole community.

It was kind of a rude awakening for me. Because I went from a campus where I was already kind of known to now, I’m the new guy. And you’re the dean. So the kids already have a little bit of a reaction to that. So I’ve been trying to pull back into some of my old academic coach strategies of talking to kids, going for a walk. And that’s really interesting because I hadn’t even thought of it that way.

ALEC PATTON: Chikle, you used a phrase. You said, academic coaches are the people who help the kids who are integrating to integrate. What you mean by that?

CHIKLE: Well, we don’t pull kids out of their class, right? We have our kids who have different learning profiles, different needs, different modalities. And I think the academic coaches are the ones who, a lot of times, are the ones facilitating the experience for those students that need that support, or that extra support. That’s very direct.

But I think it’s also– what I loved about the position, I had my students that I had to work with, and then I had all the other students that I could also work with. And so I think that’s where the position is so crucial. Because you’re also connecting to kids that, for me– when I did my interview, I came in my cuffed jeans, boots, and a flannel shirt.

And one of the boys that I ended up working a lot with told me, hey, man, no one dresses like that here. And he didn’t mean it in a bad way. He just meant it like, I see you, and thank you for being here. And so I think just being able to help a kid like that integrate to a school that– High Tech High is beautiful. It’s wonderful. We’re trying to pull kids from all over, create this melting pot almost like the society we want to see, right? I believe all of that.

But I think when you’re coming from certain parts of town, pretty rough neighborhoods and tough places to grow up, it’s not that simple. It’s not that easy to just open up to everyone and be who you are. So I think, for me, I saw part of my role in just giving kids that access that I once experienced and helping them see that they bring a lot to the table, too, that will help them connect with others.

ALEC PATTON: Would you describe High Tech High as a pretty white space?

CHIKLE: Yes.

JEAN CATUBAY: Me, too.

CHIKLE: It is what it is, right? Up until very recently, the majority of leadership at our school was white, right? I think that’s starting to change. In particular, we have a African-American CEO now. There’s more folks of color in different positions. But I think I would absolutely say yes, it’s a white space.

Because when I talk to some of our students, that’s the first thing they tell me, like, people don’t care. We’re at a white school. Nobody cares. I always say something, nobody does anything. And that always has stricken a chord with me of I disagree that nobody cares, but then what is happening or not happening to allow you to believe that, right?

And so, to me, I think that’s a part of it, and not hesitating to call things for what they are. It’s not a bad thing to say it. It just is that way. And it’s not a positive or a negative, necessarily. But clearly there’s work to be done, and how do we make it just a space where all are welcome, all feel safe and seen and heard?

So I think there’s a lot of work to be done there. And I feel like, lately, it’s a conversation that I want to embrace more openly and allow myself to make mistakes. And it’s OK. We have to do that. If things are going to change, we gotta do something. Because if we don’t, then we’re accepting what is already.

ALEC PATTON: Other than white leadership, what makes a place feel white?

CHIKLE: I think– like, speaking from this student, specifically, it was because any time that she had brought up race issues, it had always been brushed off. And I think I may have been one of the first folks to actually engage her. But even I fell short of her expectation.

And so that’s a student that I continue to work with to try to build that community and trust and also to learn from her what can we do, what should we be doing, what other conversations we need to have. Because I don’t think it’s a visual thing only. I think it’s also in how we have handled things in the past and the way things have been done.

It’s a bigger thing than High Tech High, right? It’s not a High Tech High problem. It’s a societal problem. And I think the more that we’ve talked about it in the past few years, I think the more that change is gradually happening. And I think, most importantly, modeling these conversations for our students. Our students should be seeing that we are talking about this. This is important. This is something that we’re committed to.

And so I’ve really tried to be really intentional that when I have these conversations with kids, I always use that language of I’m committed to this. We need to do this multiple times, not a one-time meeting and that’s it. We need to continue this conversation, and it’s complicated, but we’ve gotta get in there.

ALEC PATTON: Jean, did you want to weigh in on that?

JEAN CATUBAY: Yeah. I mean, I’m also High Tech High born and bred as an educator– started out as a academic coach, and this is kind of just how I learned to be a teacher. And in terms of thinking about– because I agree with you. I feel that High Tech High is not just a little bit of a white space, I feel like it really, really is a white space.

And the way for me, anyway, from my own perspective, I feel that I have to kind of straighten up a little bit, you know what I mean? I need to talk a certain way. I have to wear certain things. And I can’t really point to when I internalized that, but for sure, I always feel like that, except when I’m at Chula Vista, and so kind of, I guess, a testament to the community that we’ve built there, in terms of feeling like we are accepting and celebratory of real, authentic diversity.

And I also feel like part of white spaces too– I’m just processing this out loud right now– it kind of feels like, you know when people have an inside joke going on, and then you sense that there is an inside joke going on and you kind of name it, and they’re like, what are you talking about? That’s how it feels like when you’re in a white space, if that makes sense.

[LAUGHING]

ALEC PATTON: Yeah, that makes sense.

CHIKLE: Yeah. What do you think, Alec?

ALEC PATTON: I think if someone was like, hey, tell me about High Tech High, I wouldn’t be like, it’s super white. That wouldn’t be my immediate thing, whereas I think that probably would be, some students, one of the first things that they would tell at least some people they were talking to. But it’s also just weird because I obviously feel pretty at ease in white spaces. So it just doesn’t register, I think, in the same way.

JEAN CATUBAY: Kind of backing up, Chikle, I’m wondering, what are your on-paper responsibilities as dean of students?

CHIKLE: Essentially, it is discipline and school culture, maintaining the safety and integrity of the school. I jump in with attendance and the day-to-day making sure that students are in school, in class, doing well, and not doing anything that they shouldn’t be. With no disrespect to law enforcement, my first week as a dean of students felt like I got a good sense of what a cop feels like when they interact with the general population or communities.

Because immediately, kids had a reaction to me that was not positive, like the cursing under their breath, giving me attitude. And I was like, whoa, what the heck? It really pushed my thinking of, OK, the work that I need to do to change the perspective of students and my role. Because it’s not me, personally. They don’t even know me. All they know is I’m the guy that could get them in trouble, the guy that suspends or does those things.

I like what I do, but I also am trying to approach it from a different perspective of being preemptive and proactive and trying to do things to build community. The whole idea of restorative justice and restorative practices, I think, only works when you have something established, right? You have the community, something happens, the community takes care of it.

And I think a lot of the examples I’ve seen of that type of work is where there’s nothing established, something happens, and now let’s circle up and talk about it. At the end of that circle, we’re all good. And from what I hear from the students, it’s a game, right? I’m going to do something. Let’s sit in a circle, I’ll apologize, and then we all walk away as friends. So it’s not real.

And so I think I came into this role already with that in mind, of how do I treat the students and interact with them in a way where hopefully, they can trust me with time but also know that we know they’re going through stuff, and we’re here to support them. We’re not here to harm them or push them out, but rather if I know you have a substance abuse problem, let’s talk about that, and let’s get you the support you need, and how do I work with your family, too?

So I think, from that perspective, I see a lot of the stuff that’s happening throughout the country of defund the police, a lot of folks get caught up in the language and think getting rid of police entirely is what everybody’s trying to do. But I see it as more scaling back on police work and incorporating other folks who are trained, like social workers who can work with someone that’s in a crisis, mental health professionals that can help someone deescalate a situation where they may be attempting to harm themselves– things that some police officers may be able to do. But most of them are trained for a different type of interaction that involves force and violence.

And so I think, in my role, I feel like there’s a lot of adults that feel like punishment and discipline has to be at the forefront of everything we do and not so much the relationship-building and compassion and understanding of what a student is facing. So I see a lot of parallels in that work and just, again, trying to reset and reinvent what people understand my role to be.

ALEC PATTON: I feel like that’s probably a good note.

CHIKLE: Yeah, this was fun.

ALEC PATTON: Yeah, man. Thank you so much.

JEAN CATUBAY: Yeah, thank you, Chikle.

CHIKLE: Thank you. Thank you, both.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

ALEC PATTON: High Tech High Unboxed is written and edited by me, Alec Patton, and this episode is co-hosted by the one and only Jean Catubay. Our theme music is by Brother Hershel. I strongly recommend that you follow Chikle on Instagram. You can find him there at @Chikle79. That’s @chikle79. You can also hear Chikle on the podcasts he co-hosts, Dale Gas Confidential and Emo Brown. You can find all the links in the show notes. Thanks for listening.